Transcription #126

Hi guys, welcome to threads podcast life on filter. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. Really excited. I know Ben has to we have Zach branded from say what needs to say, say what needs saying podcast, actually typed that out the other day from memory. And then I went back and looked at the title. I’m like, No, that’s not it. But but that’s not it. But before we jump into talking to these guys, Ben’s going to talk about what threads podcast is all about. And then we’ll move on.

Hey, well, thank you, again, for tuning into the threads, podcast life unfiltered. This is a show all about life. And we talk about things in an unfiltered manner. The concept of threads podcast, we get that from the fact that in life, there are far more threads that tie us together, than there are things that pull us apart. And so we want to focus on those threads, those commonalities, those things about being human that tie us together. And as we do that we like to bring in guests like Zack and Brandon and have those same type of unfiltered open conversations so we can learn from each other, challenge each other and just have a ton of fun. Cuz what is life without camaraderie and good discussion. So that’s what the threads podcast is. We have three main topics that we cover on a regular basis. Those are faith, mental health, and uncomfortable conversations. And tonight, we will probably hit a bit of each three of those. So looking forward to that. But that is what threads podcast is in a nutshell.

Before we get to Zack and Brandon, what we typically like to do is we call it icebreaker we used to do a ton of things but like different games and stuff, but we find that it’s just easier. Just do it a check in how everyone’s coming into tonight’s show. How you feeling I’ll go first just to start it off. feeling okay. It was kind of a crazy week. I got my second vaccine on Wednesday. It kicked my ass. I I slept eight and a half hours. See Wednesday. I got it at 10am eight and a half hours Thursday night had flu like symptoms like fevers and chills all night. I did go to work because I was like, whatever. And then and then Thursday night, I went to bed at like eight o’clock and woke up at 6am for work this morning. So Oh, it was a it was crazy. But I’m glad I got it. And that’s over with and it’s just just been kind of a long week. But I’m excited to record tonight. This is a long time coming. So I’m looking forward to it.

Nice. Well, I’ll go next before we hand it over to our friends. I’m showing up tonight. It’s been a long week for me as well. Tuesday was my birthday and Labor Day. Oh, well, thank you. And I don’t know. There’s just something about getting old, like my body’s keeping score. And the evening of my birthday, I realized I had left the lawn mower in the backyard. It was covered for the most part, but I left it in the backyard and needed to get it into the garage. So just a push mower. So I pushed it over the threshold through the door to the garage. And as I’m lifting the back wheels up something in my back just pulled and I felt it go and I was like oh boy. It’s like it turned to jello. And then Tuesday night, Wednesday, Thursday, and even into this morning. Just terrible pain. And my dad gave me this nice hereditary condition. Where are my Vegas? nerve. I think that’s what it is. You guys are the medical people. I go basil raizel vagal reaction, I can’t remember. But this is essentially where if you have major pain or just an odd stimulation you pass out and I was feeling close to that just because of the pain levels. So thankfully, that’s kind of wrapping up. Didn’t feeling better today. I climbed a ladder and put a canopy up in the backyard and

wow, wow, that would not if I had that situation. I wouldn’t go for a ladder. I wonder why he did that he right. This is my this is why women live longer than men.

Yeah, good for you though. So yeah. So I’m showing up thankful to be feeling better. Because I mean, I was just hobbling around all week and hurt to do anything. So glad that’s over and I am just thrilled to be back with you guys loved being on your show. So glad you guys chose to come hang out with us tonight. So that’s where I’m at. Who wants to go next.

Zack I’ll take a swing at it. Sure. Well, it’s Friday in my world is beautiful day. Jimmy had a day off of work I just why when I have my work days, I devote everything to work on my days off. I be as lazy. I become as lazy as possible, just my body can relax, and I’m more eager to work the next day. So others really actually made. My girlfriend just grad is about to graduate banuelos University and she’s just got accepted into grad school going to CSU, so I’m making her celebratory dinner, and I just made a rack of lamb with mashed potatoes and some broccoli. Amazing.

Not only have I never made a rack of lamb I’ve never eaten a rack of delicious Yeah. What about you Zack? Um,

I’m so I’m here. I’m excited to be here because same same as all of you guys have said it’s a long time coming. I really liked having you guys on our show. And I’m excited to be on yours. lately. Not gonna lie like it’s been a long week for me to have been dealing with a lot of imposter syndrome lately and dealing with just some anxiety and depression and stuff. But I feel like I’m at the start of the upswing if that makes sense. So like currently feel crappy but feel like it’s going up. I’m scheduled a an appointment for like to try to find a new therapists coming up and started working out again, though. So just feeling feeling pretty good. But you know, as good as I can be right now. But but extremely happy to be here. And honestly, if I could pick any podcast to be on right now it would be this one. So I’m super thrilled to, to do this episode.

And then don’t let it be understated. All the accolades that Zack has said I like it is probably the most when I got onto the screen. I was so light hearted. I was like, I remember this screen. I remember these two faces, and what we shared and I, we close a computer, and it stayed with me. I come back all those feelings return. So it is you guys really are a this room. You guys create a room inside of a Zoom Room?

Yeah, well, I appreciate that. That that really does mean a lot. So let’s talk about the show that we were on. I’m just gonna bring up the funny part that I wrote on it is like, everyone that like our threat, we call them threads. They’re like, I feel like Jason took over their show. Did you guys feel that a little bit? Because I as as a podcaster. It’s so hard to be like the guest.

Yeah. No, I I appreciated the kind of different style you guys brought to it. Because it is, you know, look, I like doing this. I like podcasting and all that the interviewing is still awkward interviewing is still like, a strange thing that I’m not still used to. And so it kind of helps to have another podcaster on the other side. That is totally just you know, it makes it feel more genuine, more natural as opposed to a I don’t know, bulleted, just scripted conversation. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so I know I appreciate it. I didn’t feel like you were taken over at all. You were saying what needed to be said. Yeah, well, I

do feel I think it was on your show. We talked about the cannabis, right? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, I actually did finally come out on our show and talk about it. Because I remember saying to you guys, I hadn’t hadn’t said it to anyone anymore. And to anybody. And I finally did come on the show. Although, I mean, I know I’m digressing here. But I started working out like four or five weeks ago, and it’s a lot of my pain has disappeared. Yeah. Yeah. So I haven’t used much cannabis lately. So that’s been, that’s been pretty nice. So what about you, Ben? Yeah, so

as I look back on that episode, I loved it. It was so good. And the thing that stuck with me, Brandon is your words to me about my experience with my adopted black daughter at the grocery store. I was talking about how I felt all the eyes were on me when I went to the neighborhood grocery store where I was in the minority. And up until our conversation, I had never once thought or realized that. That very same experience that I went through at the grocery store. That’s daily life for my daughter growing up in a white world. And it really hit me It hit a nerve deep and it really stayed with me and it’s helped open my eyes to what life is like for my daughter so I can’t thank you Enough for that. It was powerful. And it’s enabled me to really have some meaningful conversations with my daughter. We’ve actually been even more intentional since then about helping her to have interaction with other black people. Hilarious, you’re gonna laugh and this just points out the whiteness of us like, last Sunday miracles dance instructor invited her to go to church with her. And after church, they went to a friend’s house for brunch. And on the menu for brunch, of course was grits. Miracle had never had grits before. And he was like, what, what’s grits? So here’s this black girl saying what’s great. And the other ladies there, I mean, they were telling me when I picked her up, and they just had a good laugh. I mean, a belly laugh about that. Here’s this 12 year old black girl who didn’t know a grits were. And again, it just reveals to me got some work to do. You’ll be happy to know that we now have grits in our pantry. And I enjoy them. They were I was pleasantly surprised. So all that to say I am just thrilled You’re back. So thanks for making this happen.

Well, of course interesting that conversation wasn’t even on the docket that wasn’t even something that we planned for it. I just knew had a moment I respond, heard and responded. Now granted, don’t feel pressured to try to introduce everything that she will be able to get like, you know, your her dad, so then let her know about you. You know, I feel like I feel like as, as we develop, or at least from my perspective, as we develop, we learn about ourselves and our friends, learn the intricacies and the dynamics, the dynamic pneus of ourselves, right, and then you become parents, and then you become a parent to your kid. And that’s all you kind of become, depending on your level of pain I want I would want to challenge and hopefully you are able to challenge myself when I have my kid that try to have your kid know who you are. like to just know who you are not the parent, not the not in a friend way. But just because if she feels a sense of home, or a sense of connection with you, you will always be her fortress. And that’s like the time thing you want as a father to be the safest in your world. Yep, the world is crystal clear to her. And because you guys share you, your wife and her all share this unique situation of perception. And you guys can have interesting conversations about perception. Talk about how you view this cartoon or how I would view it or right, just want to hear kids are sponges mix. They’re still curious. But we have, we’ve been told to keep this idea of a parent in this hallowed form, you know, bring it down when I’m a little more personal. The world’s a little more scary. You know, I’m if I’m on your side. So

Very good. Very good thoughts. Well, I think you’re gonna make an amazing father one day. So I’m stoked for you. Thank you. So I got a question for you. You have this podcast say what needs saying it’s pretty incredible. You’re having lots of just super deep conversations sometimes controversial. How did this get started? Like, what’s the backstory? What what led up to this podcast becoming a thing? That taken away? Yeah, I

can take that one. So I, I came up with the original idea and private to Brandon. And so there’s kind of the two different backstories there. So I’m on the side with why I approached Brandon first, like we went to undergrad together. We were both neuroscience majors. He was biology, I was psychology. But, you know, we talked about lots of different things and had lots of great conversations. Even though there were a lot of times where we would differ at times, you know, with one thing or another, as far as why I started it, why, why I wanted to do it in the first place. I’ve more recently been becoming more politically involved, more thinking about policy as a career route and thinking about, like, just becoming more aware of politics and you know, whatnot. And I’m more conservative, I’m more conservative. And being a conservative in Ann Arbor, Michigan, in academia, in science. It’s kind of made me incredibly aware of being that minority. You know, voice or opinion or belief system, because like I can’t talk about politics to people in academia, like half of them want to cancel me already. And the other half just don’t know my political views. So. So that was kind of the the initial motivation for this was, I know that there are other people. And it’s not just about politics. That’s why we try to cover religion and culture and other touchy subjects. Other people feel that same way about different conversation topics. And I know that these things are the biggest aspects of our lives, right? Whether it’s politics, or religion, or culture, or, you know, money is another one we touch on, like, there are elements of our lives that make up a substantial part of who we are, what we’re doing, or where we live, and you know, the laws around us, whatever, but we’re not allowed to talk about it for one reason or another. And so that was kind of the what sparked the idea. And then yeah, like I said, I brought it to Brandon, I, I pitched it to him and said, like, you know, look, we disagree on some stuff. And but we’ve had these conversations, and I asked him to be my co host, and no history from there, I guess. Yeah, that’s awesome. How long have you been doing it now?

Oh, over a little over two over almost a year, right. Yeah, it was what, June or July? June? June? Something like that. Yeah.

I tell you what, you we are one of the few like yours and ours, because there’s so many that do two or three episodes or 10 episodes and they fade out. So is No, I mean, kudos to you. Sometimes it’s hard. Like I could hear it. And you’re not in this when you talk now. But you know, when you talked about the podcast, and sometimes it can get long in the tooth? I mean, it sometimes sucks. Like, Oh, I know, you’re talking about like being the interviewer. Which, by the way, her last episode. That was what was going on, it was rough. Like it was just Yeah. Have you ever had I don’t know if you guys do interviews a lot. But it was just like, at the end, I hit my head on the mic with Ben. And I was just like, oh, boy, that you know, you know, one of those. But no, it’s so interesting how opposites work on a podcast because I would say, Ben and I kind of lean the same way, a little bit. But we’re totally different people like he’s an introvert, I’m an extrovert, I tell it like it is he kind of bottled it up so that really can can work on a podcast. So as far as that, go ahead, Brandon

knows, the thing that’s being a little more cows with is I was my mentor. Oh, he wasn’t using why once a bone loss University, and we would have conversations on Facebook all the time. And people will be either too afraid to say their part or you know, someone will have something real perspective. And we will just challenge people to have that. And one thing that you mentioned, sometimes it gets rough, and I never thought it will come to me. But it’s literally the people who know about the show, who can sit to allow us to continue it. Yeah, we’ll have something that pops up. Like the things that people are afraid of talking about are the things that are in the news. It’s It’s literally the most pressing thing on television, and people are scared shitless to talk about it. So when we see that we put the little hashtag and we just generate comments you know people want to say something and we created this platform you have to use it you have to use it responsibly let’s do it and it’s always it’s always good all of our at the end of all of our conversation we’re like oh, this is amazing interview

that’s so good to hear. So Ben and I have I don’t know we’ve had I’m kind of jumping around but I’m sorry what I’m trying to try to categorize so the podcast right like I’m really curious I want to talk shop so much I don’t want the whole episode to be that way but like Ben and I I’m so hard to deal with sometimes like we’ve we almost stopped the show like three months ago like we get in fights sometimes that are just the stupidest thing so have you guys ever gotten into a fight? Whether it’s personal fight or topic on the show or something that maybe off air you were like Dude, what the hell that you were like, I don’t know this is gonna continue

nothing yet. Yeah, nothing really yet. I mean, we like I guess part of it is we’ve kind of been

winging it makes it sound like we’re not taking it seriously I don’t want to say winging it, but we haven’t put in like set in stone, a lot of the different stuff like you know, going over different responsibilities and, and whatnot. And so it’s been a little looser, and we’ve kind of just reached out to one another whenever something Coming up, or, you know, we’re gonna do an episode and just pose an idea to one another. And I mean, so far it’s, it’s worked out fine. I mean, we’ve, you know, he’s trusted me on my own on episodes and I’ve trusted him with episodes. And so you know, so far it’s been okay. I mean topic wise. We’ve had a couple times where we disagree on stuff. Obviously we disagree on previous stuff. That’s the point.

Yeah. Right.

Right. But, um, but yeah, I mean, I don’t know. Unless, unless I’m just not thinking to something, Brandon. And something jumps out to you that you’re like, No, no, no, I we’re in this like, for this. So.

I mean, I can’t think of a single that I enjoy. Like, I enjoy Zack as a person. I still look to him as the super dude like, so I still hold him. There’s a level of reverence when I get to speak to him. So anytime we collab on a conversation. I don’t even mind stepping a bit out there on perspectives and may not be my direct ones, Borden exaggerated one just to get him out of his comfort. And I love that I love seeing him, quote, unquote, squirm. I didn’t like the way they would have came out. But now, Zack, at the end of the day, you close all these computers down and we’ll still have a conversation with Zack and it’s always beautiful. So I’m never at odds. I I enjoy this. Definitely. Oh, that’s amazing. It’ll come. It’ll come at some point. It’ll never happen. I was afraid it would have been what happened recently because I was like, I was like, yeah, it’s, you know, another situation. But he has threads that would they take him almost out of Zach’s character, and I’m like, Oh, I’m, I’m not tied to this. I don’t. But you know, it’s always good. So.

So I’m curious. You both mentioned some of the the, what feels is at the by the neuro neuroscience and neuro science. Okay. So are you working in that field in school? I know, Brandon, you mentioned Zach was kind of a mentor. So what do you guys do in real life?

Well, I’ll go first. And then Brandon, if you want to take it after. So I’m a PhD student at the University of Michigan. Going for my PhD in neuroscience, obviously, um, and then I also trying for a science technology and public policy certificate. And so yeah, so I’m in my fourth, the note will be going into my fourth year. Soon, the average graduation time is 5.6, I think 5.7 years. So I’m hoping that I’ve just got a couple years left, but right, yeah, that’s me.

Okay. So then what does the job market look like after that? What kind of positions? Are you going to go into politics? He’s not going to use any of it.

Yeah, honestly. So I, I’ve been thinking a lot more about kind of a quote unquote, career change a lot more lately. And that’s kind of been playing into some of the anxiety and everything else going on. But, but like, you know, I’ve thought about, I’m in the process of filling out a an application for an online like, kind of, quote, unquote, training program with the Heritage Foundation. So maybe think tanks like that, for policy or, you know, it potentially working somewhere like the NIH or NSF, whether or not I’m doing research, but you know, working in that environment and potentially working on policy. Hmm. I’ve The only as far as politics goes, the only thing I’ve thought of would be like board of education or something like I don’t want to do like, politics really like but like, I’m passionate about education. So I would do that. Um, so yeah, I don’t know. I mean, as far as the job market goes, I have plenty of other avenues. I could go down that I’ve thought about industry research, I would be open to I want to get out of academia. I’m going to get the hell out of academia, but industry research would be okay, policy. But yeah, I mean, I don’t know. I’m hoping to know a little better over the next year or so after kind of fleshing out my options and policy. Yeah, very cool. Yeah. What about you, Brandon?

Well, I’m a central neurophysiologist. And that last parts, tends to switch between neuro technologist neurophysiologist depending on the day, but that is a fancy fancy word. For a while a surgeon is doing a procedure, whether it be a fusion in the neck, a spine, scoliosis, tumors, anything in the spinal cord. He’s looking at the more the gross picture, the more physical perspective, there’s still the electrical components of the body and the neurological communications, and that those pathways need to be monitored, especially dealing with small areas, like in the neck or like in a micro disk or working in a small small spaces. So what I would do is during the surgery between the two parts of the inside of your ankles and the inside of your room, I’ll stimulate those with a small amount of electricity and put at least around 30 something needles across your body to get the full neurological picture as almost like receivers. And then I create this digital picture, creating this, and I’m having this dialogue with the Omar and with the surgeon to see where is he touching? whereas he retracting, is he placing something that he just placed in her body? Let’s wait, let’s see what happens. Um, we’re trying to see if we’re trying to retrieve this person’s hearing did it? Did they go through the full pathway of the difficulty the full hearing pathway, did it not? Did it fall short somewhere? Is there a is there a difference in, I guess how big the signals are, how they’re latency? There’s a lot that goes into it. But it’s just to make sure that there’s no paralysis. In other words, I’m making sure muscles don’t fatigue don’t atrophy. Anything in regards to post up in regards to the nerves? That’s my job to make sure everybody’s good.

Wow. They’re both like, Whoa, I need a drink of mine.

It’s hard to keep a smile. People’s worst days are my Wednesday like, Oh,

yeah. Oh, my gosh, no. Do you do stuff? Like how often are you in surgery then is that ah,

so Zack hates this part of the question. I don’t have a schedule. Okay. I would say I’ve worked one five days a week. I haven’t I would average maybe 2.3 days a week. I work maybe would be one week, no weeks, a one day maybe, you know, days, three days four. It’s whenever a surgeon because we have a team, right? And whenever urgent pops up, a surgeon needs to come on. And she needs to be done the next day or the following week, following month. And we delegate to surgeons and that’s how I am. And are you still in school too? I did. I did a post of my postgraduate program. I mean post baccalaureate program was really expensive. I had to take a CMM which is I think almost like almost 6000 people have the certificate. It was really difficult. But Whoa, I should be finished my schooling. Yeah.

Oh, nice. School. My gosh. How old are you guys, by the way, so probably mid 20s. Then I’m 2523 25 Oh, man. That’s your baby. I have a son. That’s 24.

Wow. Wow. See all this gray. Air for a reason. It is yours and wisdom. Yeah, yeah. You see this? Nothing. Why are you trying to grow it out? Or?

I’ve been trying so hard. But barber walks up to me and says there’s seven whiskers. On the bottom third of your face. What do you want me to do with this? line it up? Why? Why did Brian even talks to you about it? He’s right. Have you ever see somebody say hey, which which? Which red looks better? That’s how much facial hair I have the difference between the

Oh, that’s hilarious. couple more questions about the podcast. You obviously talk about some uncomfortable things. What about family and friends? Do they listen? Or not? Like, I don’t know any? of if any of my friends or family? Listen regularly. I know they’ve listened to a few episodes here and there. But how about you guys?

Um, I would say I have some choice A have some choice people that watch it. And they’re gonna be soon to be Christmas gift getters, receivers, because they regulate kind of Oh, regularly watch but family wise. No. And I think a lot of them will be shocked, shocked, shocked that I would have a platform like this and then articulate myself in this manner. Really. Because I’m in a Jamaican household, you’re not really supposed to speak up or speak out and have the bush of perspective, enjoy something at least something not to come at least nine to almost come close to seem combative. And this was some would say this is an antagonistic podcast. So I would love for them to hear how who who Brandon is now in his adulthood. I think it will be a pleasant surprise.

Yeah. What about us?

Um, so same with the friends couple, you know, a couple of choice friends that that listen in. I think regularly. A couple that I know listen in regularly, but then a couple that I think listen in here or there as far as family goes, at least a handful. So my parents listen in pretty frequently. And then outside of that I’ve got a couple family members That will tune in here. They’re usually for particular episodes. So I’ve got some police in my family that tuned in when we interviewed the black police officers. I’ve got a couple that listened for I don’t remember the other ones, but basically that they’ll tune in here or there. So So yeah, it always makes me a little nervous because I know that, you know, at least a couple family and a couple friends are gonna be listening in. And, you know, I’m sure that to some extent, it’s the same as you, Brandon that some of them are surprised by, by what we’re talking about, or what I’m doing with that. Like, again, I’m the nerdy scientist kid who doesn’t, doesn’t typically talk I’m very introverted. I don’t I couldn’t do this if it were in person, at least not yet. Live Show come out eventually. Yeah, eventually, yes. But like, I don’t like to, I don’t want to say I don’t like talking to people because obviously I love talking to people. Like, but you know, so I think that the I guess the vibe I give off at family parties is probably a little bit different than say what needs saying Zach, but um,

yeah, I’ve had that awkward moment with friends and like they say they listen, I’m like, oh, did you listen to this episode? And then it’s clear that they did and I’m like, Listen, it’s okay. If you don’t like don’t feel bad. I’m not offended if you don’t I get it. I have a lot of podcasts I listened to and I’ve been on some shows and I you know, I honestly I haven’t listened to many episodes of your guys’s either. I don’t have the time. Like I have a list of and it’s not because your show or whoever show or whatever is in bad. It’s just I don’t I don’t have the time. So I’ve had a few awkward moments. And I always make it on awkward by saying like, I’m not mad. I don’t care. I mean, if my wife didn’t listen, that might be a problem. But you know, but other than that, yeah, I also don’t really listen to the episodes that we put out I edit them so I really I record them. Then I added them. I’m not listening to my voice for a third time. It’s just not happening.

It took me a huge hurdle to get to those show notes. Just to hear yourself over again. Like I should not be in the voice business

sound I’m so nasal Lee and when I like I can’t hear it when I talked myself when I hear it play back. I’m while you guys can hear me. It’s weird how you hear your voice different on your speaking than what other? And I was like, Oh my gosh, I’m so nicely. Some from Michigan. night

you want to have a Do you want to have an uncomfortable realization? Yes. If you would like to know what you actually sound like to the public, put your hands above your ears and listen to yourself talk. Alright, that’s the sound and you’ll be very disappointed. Oh, I sound like a preteen Mickey Mouse character. Okay. Okay. Oh my gosh.

That’s hilarious. That’s amazing. So on your show, what has been the most uncomfortable thing or topic or happening that you’ve discussed on the show?

I don’t know. Brandon, does anything come to mind for you? I gotta think for a second most

uncomfortable. I’ve had to, uh, I don’t I don’t think so. If anything, I would hear an individual’s perspective. And I’ve had to tell myself, it’s okay. It’s his perspective. It’s his perspective, his perspective, his perspective, and they’re not wrong. And that’s what we try to implore is that we are accepting of those who speak and choose to speak because we celebrate the courageous, and I shamed the cowardice. But we do praise those who do speak and I I’m open to it all. I try not to the real world scares me what we do here. It’s all manufactured. You don’t I mean, we’re trying to create conversation. The real world.

Yeah, yeah. Well,

as we’re kind of jumping into some topics, I want to bring up something that Zack said earlier about half his class wants to cancel him. Yeah. Interesting. You brought that up? What What is it about that? Why you think they want to cancel? You be? I mean, obviously, I’m curious to what kind of conservative you are because so it’s funny. I have a hat that has an American flag on it. Right? And this whole Trump thing has been a shit show. I have a big beard. I have tattoos all over my arm and everything. So since this whole Trump thing, I never not wanted to wear a hat with an American flag on it. Because I think people labeled me as a trumper you know what I mean? And so it really bothers me and I’m not wearing that hat tonight. I actually only wear it working out now. Isn’t that shitty that I do that but But anyways, what is what kind of conservative Are you actually and you Bring up that cancel I’m curious what what what they were they were their guidance my hiding but yeah, like why would they want to canceling for

now so I get it um so as far as what my personal views are what what kind of conservative I am so I’ve kind of oscillate between conservative and libertarian. I, I say conservative just because I think it sums it up a little bit better than libertarian, there are a couple things that you know, I lean that way and I also Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know why I picked that one but some combination of conservative libertarian with, I guess, as far as, as far as, like Trump because Trump brings in kind of a different element that is not really stereotypical conservative or stereotypical libertarian true. I, I, I think that I would describe myself and this is kind of weird, because I’ve never really thought about this that this much like I do, obviously, but you know, as far as wording it I guess I would be policy wise, usually conservative libertarian, as far as Trump goes. I, I will say that I appreciated him as a as a bulwark against the kind of culture war stuff. So like the cultural stuff outside of policy, I agreed with him on a lot of policy because he actually was fairly conservative on some areas, and then other words, you know, whatever. Um, but yeah, when it comes to what I think would be canceled for I think, at this point, it’s, I’ve had enough people actually reach out to me, whether publicly or privately and take issue with some of my more innocuous views, in my opinion innocuous that I don’t think it’s really about anymore. Like, like, I’m not some closet racist, bigoted, you know, I don’t know, like that might end the show real quick. Right. So so I don’t think it’s that but like so you know, a couple more innocuous ones that I’ve had people either write me off for or call me racist for Kyle Rittenhouse hosting an episode on Kyle Rittenhouse. I didn’t even express my personal views. I just said I’m posting this on our platform, let’s talk about it and see it all. And I had people that I was good friends with before that, that then we’re going to that felt differently about me after that. Um, the big one is I don’t believe in the, I guess. I don’t believe in systemic racism in the way that it’s typically talked about. Like and so that’s usually a pretty big one that people will take issue with me for outside of that. I mean, I don’t think you know, fiscal people will always say like, Oh, well, small government and fiscal conservatism isn’t going to get you cancelled. It’s like, well, it might, depending on what part of government you’re talking about limiting or cutting, and it might depending on what you actually want to stop paying taxes for. Because like, I don’t agree with universal health care, right, for example, that’s in its core, still related to taxes and spending and, you know, can be framed in a fiscal conservatism light, but can get you cancelled, and I’ve, you know, had posts on Facebook, where people basically equate well, and Bernie Sanders has equated in the past people that, you know, either republicans or or people that disagree with universal health care that they either want you to die, or they you know, don’t value your health or whatever. So, it’s, I know, this is a long, tangential ramble, and I apologize. But I don’t really know how best to explain I think it’s just kind of the the idea that any of these views, even if they’re slightly conservative, I am constantly feeling this, this hesitancy to express them and partially because of the number of people who have actually said something or commented or talked about it, you know, that are either in my program or in academia or whatever.

Let’s talk about canceled culture. Just for instance, what about the whole Dr. Seuss thing? I’m just curious, your opinion on that. Clearly a racist, right. Clearly a racist and, and so he’s passed away, obviously. But then there was also my my kid reads these book dog man, and I think it’s Dave pickney. Oh, yeah. Captain Underpants. Yeah, yeah. And he wrote a book like 11 years ago, and it had an Asian guy in it or something. And like, he was worried he got canceled and he took the book. They took the book off the shelf, and he paid all his royal To all this stuff, so is Yeah, from that book, he paid all his prepayments and royalties to charity, which is great. I’m sure he’s rich, because he’s a great writer, and he’s got a lot of books. But where do you draw the line of this? This canceled culture of like the guy I mean, it was written 11 years ago clearly does not have a background of it. And I get the sensitivity around it. I totally do. Just curious your guy’s opinion on that.

I just can’t stand those who just want to be a part of something for the sake of being a part of something. It makes zero sense for you to want to cancel. But if you want to cancel it was a Dr. Seuss, then you would have to cancel endgame. Because who are we talking about? When we mentioned what Disney? Right? What are we talking about? When we watch Bugs Bunny? And we have space gems coming out? What do you like? What would you use? You just want to be a part of something just to say, you just saying whatever you want to say with no type of credulous or, or, or or nuance of anything. We everyone knew that. Yeah, the entire the fabric of America back then, is the same now but you just got to wash it out. So all the colors kind of look the same. It’s it’s just it’s, it’s the same reality you grew up seeing the whole, like, like the pig and Denise like that was in every every cartoon from Tom and Jerry. don’t cancel. That doesn’t make any sense. What are you canceling? You’re not even the person affected black people. I’ve been reading these books to their kids and just say, Hey, this is the world we live in, then you’re just gonna have to say this the world we live in this book seems crazy. brushing off your shoulder, you’re gonna have a chip on your shoulder, but it’s your good. Like, it’s not. If it’s like I can’t people want to pick a fight. And that’s all that’s all I got from that. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that I kind of had two thoughts on it. The first is that I think there’s a difference between canceled culture and the consequences of canceled culture. And I think Dr. Seuss is a good example of this to me. They everyone would that was talking about this, that I saw at least on Facebook, and you know, in the in the social media world, they went out in the real world for, um, you know, it always was, Oh, this isn’t canceled culture. They’re pulling the books themselves. Okay, but why do you think they’re pulling the books? Why now? Why now it’s because we’re living in this era of canceled culture where they’re most likely afraid to, on some level be canceled or boycotted or whatever. I don’t want to say that everyone has bad motives. And I’m not trying to say that every business that pulls their own products for any reason. It has any particular motive. But I think it it’s, it evidences the culture we live in when, when book book writers are burning the books. And when they’re the ones pulling them from circulation. You know, I moreso understand the instances like I think they put warnings on Dumbo and Peter Pan. Yeah. And like, like, just say, this was wrong, then it’s still wrong now, but like, this is what I’m more okay with something like that. Because then at least you can still learn from it, you can still teach it, you know, it’s the same with pulling down statues, right? Yes, maybe this person was a bad person. But if the statues gone, how do you teach the history of that bad person and the impact that they had on society that was large enough to garner them a statue? Right, like, and so there’s history in all of that. There’s that in books, there’s that in everything. I think kancil culture would be more you. And I don’t want to say this is canceled culture. It’s less a consequence and more. But you know, Amazon’s selecting particular books, and I think they’ve since gotten rid of that, but at one point, they were picking a couple books to take off and not not sell. Hmm, that to me feels more canceled Kultury because it’s a, I guess, in this case, a business not necessarily an individual. But you know, canceling a book for whatever views are in it, whatever information is it while you know, mine comp is still available? And while you know, plenty of other hateful books and things are available, so it’s much more selective. So I don’t know, I think that it’s I think that it’s dangerous. I think we’re starting to see the pushback to it, though a lot more now. So I don’t think it’s going to go incredibly far. I think that it will reverberate back. But yeah, I think that it’s it’s just it’s toxic, and it affects more than just conservatives. I shouldn’t I don’t want it to sound like I was trying to frame it earlier that conservatives are the victims of this. There have been poll after poll. I think that who did them? I can’t remember. So take it with a grain of salt who did it but there was a poll that found I think 80 some percent of people sense self censor on some level. There is one poll that found that everyone except very strong liberals, self censor political views, you know, it’s it’s affecting a lot of people People now and so it’s starting to get to the point where, you know, suppression of thought is not a good thing for society. And so that’s what I see as the primary problem with cancel culture.

I kind of disagree with you on the statue thing, though. I think they should come down. I mean, I get it in a history book. I don’t want them to, I want kids to read about it, but kind of feel like a statues like, I mean, not the way that they did it. And each one should be evaluated individually. I’m not talking a blanket statement. But I mean, if you got if this, I don’t know, the Robert E. Lee stuff. It’s just like, why are we having like a statue seems like an award, right? Like in a book, a history book, you’re reading about it. Okay, this guy’s piece of shit, whatever, blah, blah, blah. Sure, but like making a statue and like this huge thing? I don’t know.

Well, I think it all kind of stems from Well, I find it interesting. A lot of the I guess the older generation says, You know, I don’t like that, you know, there’s a participation trophy, or I don’t like that there’s a there’s everyone get everyone feel special as well, America lost the war, and then are proudly lost and then have the flags of when they tried to take over America. And then you don’t want to try to see them. It’s like I don’t how do you have a How do you have a, you gave yourself a trophy for losing? I don’t understand this the same thing you were you just told us about?

Yeah, the Confederate ones, I think I are slightly I empathize with those ones being taken down a little more partially because of the enemy of the state argument that you can make that is we literally fought a war against these people. And so they were they were the enemy. And the fact that obviously, you know, there are still people alive today that have had, you know, not to distantly removed relatives as slaves or as victims of that, that Civil War. And so I that one, again, and I don’t want to say I agree with you, Jason, when you talk about individually, each one is assessed. Look, if the city of Columbus wants to completely distanced itself from the name, and they they pull the communities and they they, you know, everyone agrees that yes, we’re going to change the name of Columbus, Ohio to something else, because we don’t want to be associated with Christopher Columbus or, you know, whatever. Or and, you know, same with cities with statues. I still agree with that, in principle, I just disagree with I guess the the mass, I guess, mob mentality, or removal of statues from Sure, you know, or the removal of statues without that. I don’t know, assessment of the communities 100 on it, or whatever. Yeah,

I think what’s missing in kancil culture is critical thinking skills. Yeah. A lot of things. True. I mean, I don’t think kids are being taught how to think critically anymore. Everything is responded to off the cuff. Nobody thinks about the things they say. I’m obviously making blanket statements. But that’s just how it feels in canceled culture. Nobody’s stopping and evaluating. It’s just like up got a got to cut ties with that got to stop publishing that book. It’s just where did critical thought go?

I think it’s laziness. I think, if you like, Oh, is it easier to just get rid of it? Or is do we have a conversation about it? Not Have a conversation as to call this group and this bureaucratic group and have a poll and see if the Viacom will be okay with it? No, no, no, just get rid of it. And people have a nice around 12 weeks, people will completely forget about it. And then it’s usually now you that’s I mean, my people were making that joke for a while, like if I die, I’ll become a hashtag for two weeks. Now. Anything’s a hashtag for two weeks and those will go away.

Yeah, yeah, I think it’s instead of laziness. I would call it complacency. But I think it’s complacency. And I think it’s lack of principles, because everyone canceling other people on some level, unless you are and I know that you know, maybe this is segwaying into your guys’s faith segments and stuff, but like, look at I was raised Catholic and the, the, I don’t know let he without sin cast the first stone right like that. That principle there is just sorely lacking in kancil culture that’s not there because every single person has dirty laundry. Every single person has some skeleton or some cry, not cry, you know. So everyone has something bad that they’ve done right that they would not want revealed to the world. And if it were revealed to the world, they wouldn’t want to suddenly be unable to hold down a job or hold down a house or hold that you know, they wouldn’t want their life to be over because someone found out about their their weird thing on the Internet are they’re weird that you know, or their their political views are it you know, the mob is going to come for the cancellers it will just be a matter of time. And so it’s just a lack of principles on top of that complacency.

And I think it’s it’s, it’s people just love to, to fight. Yeah, what I mean to people love that mentality of like, let’s get on without thinking without having that critical thought like, hmm, you know, even with LeBron photo, we talked about this before we started recording about putting that guy on blast, and then he took it down. Because he didn’t, you know, he didn’t take the time to think about it or let things play out or whatever. And just, everyone just needs to take a beat. me included, I get worked up way too quick.

Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s a consequence of the instant world we live in, you know, the fact that we can have four of us in a virtual room here, as we were in the same room. It’s obviously fascinating. And in this context, it’s amazing. But as I’m sure you’ve experienced with some of the guests on your show, you give somebody a mic, and they’re not filtering. They’re not critically thinking they’re just shouting off divisive things, because they have the platform. So I think this technology, in our world of instant has just really given us the opportunity to be lazy and react and react in such a way that the world hears it. And it’s in, in some ways, it’s celebrated or, I mean, lauded, I mean, advertisers pick up on that stuff on social media and run with it. And it’s just a wild wild world. Yeah.

Okay, so who is going to get canceled? Out of all four of us who wants to say something right now?

I know for a fact that I don’t mind standing on the bearings of anything I said, in like, post Middle School. Right? Okay. If you come to live, I could kind of live in that world, whether it be something comedic, I enjoy making jokes, whether it be comedic, I can stay, I can give you the rationality, more cerebral aspect to a joke. Or I can point out your insecurity as you’re trying to point out mine. It’s not it’s the effort. I would dare someone but I wouldn’t have certainly, I’ve seen what they’ve done to millionaires.

Yeah, you guys are young enough that I mean, you did you I mean, Twitter’s better. You guys are probably in high school with Twitter and stuff, right? Like all that, like, I, I’m 45. So when when I went to high school, there was no social media. Thank God. I mean, I didn’t even have a cell phone until I was like, 20. So yeah, yeah, I know my daughter right now who’s 13 she’s so spoiled has a better phone than I do that little stink bomb. Cuz I don’t really care about my phone. But, um, so where do you want to go from here? Ben, do we want to do want to talk a little bit about uh, George Floyd, do we want to jump into the faith? What do you think? And we’re already at about almost an hour right now.

We can do both. Maybe? Yeah. But I think, Zack, you hinted at religion a little bit. And so we were talking about the lack of critical thought. And I think that’s very present in the general Christian, Protestant, maybe even Catholic tradition. So much of the, the, the, I’ll call it the religious right? It seems like being a Christian and being a conservative Republican, for a lot of people go hand in hand. And that has always bothered me the fact that if I say I’m a Christian, then you’re going to automatically assume that I’m also a Trump supporter, or whatever the case may be. So I’m curious from your perspective as to individuals who may not have as close of an attachment to faith as Jason and I do. What is your perspective of Christians in America? Is it close to what I mentioned? Or am I off base in that assumption that that’s how we’re viewed first? If you’ve got something, go ahead.

Okay, so growing up, I think we mentioned this before last time we were here, but if the age of 11 if someone were to see me, they’ll say that guy’s gonna be a deacon, because I was in church all the time. And that would be the choir the Bible study, walking through stuff. My dad loves telling the story. I was walking through like six feet of snow to go to church. He’s like this guy. He knows he’s devout. But when I think of at least Christianity In America, I remember watching the word network or at least the gospel network as a kid. And there’ll be this really famous Filipino preacher, I forgot his name, but he’s extremely famous his long hair, and what they would preach versus what TD Jakes or Joe OC would preach. There’s a physicality of a material, whether it be the focus whether the material is good or bad. That’s the focus for the western Christianity. But you hear about it on the east end in the east, Eastern hemispheric perspective, and I hear more of the Old Testament perspective is very much so. The non physical, like the emotion, the rationale, the perspective, the the Brotherhood aspect of it. And I always wondered and coming from Jamaica, it’s more of that as well. Here, I hear that now. And I’m like, I wonder why is there such a focus on the physical while the the, you know, at the time, you didn’t know the fashion, but now people are showing me like TD Jakes would be wearing easy’s or even like Joel olsteen. Like when I think of a Christian I think of Joel olsteen. I think of him denying people into his church and those flooding. Yeah, and that hurts me so freight looked in flippin mush I’m with in my head. I don’t mind that you’re a capitalistic preacher. I don’t know what role that rocks in but rock out. It’s difficult for me. You mean, do your thing is difficult. I know. Like I’ve seen people who have nothing give their last on Sunday. Yeah, it’s rough for me for you to say, nah, you’re good. And you have like a plane? I’m like, dude.

Yeah. So as far as as far as my thoughts go. I think that so I think it’s clear that I agree with your perception, I think of the public perception of Christianity, that it’s kind of gotten to the point where there’s, it’s, it’s being more and more linked to the, the more radical or extremist sects of it. I think, and this may sound more hopeless than I intend for it to be. Um, but I think that that’s almost an inevitability. As long as Christianity remains the majority religion in America, just like, I think that it’s the same and this, I don’t know if this is more, more controversial or not the same, it’s the same as the backlash against whiteness, right? It’s it’s the backlash against the the majority that is seen to be prospering for for one reason or another with Christianity, it’s often linked to laws, right? They’ll look at laws that proposed laws or policies and say, Look, you know, they’re getting they’re benefiting their religion specifically, or they’re, you know, doing whatever, when, when realistically, usually, it’s not, it’s either an exception to a law or whatever, but that’s a tangent. But I think that while while you are the majority, you experienced two things in kind of isolation, it seems from my short experience here is you have majority privilege, which is really what white privilege is what people talk about its majority privilege, it’s what then you said, you you feel and your daughter, in instances where you are in a black majority area, your daughter is going to have that privilege, and you will not you will, you will not and so majority privilege happens. But then there’s pushback against the majority because, you know, push back for one reason or another, whether it’s push back against tyranny on one hand, or push back against, you know, the perceived majority that is really just a ly loud minority. And so I think that holds true with Christians. And I think that it’s probably going to hold true for a long time. And the public perception will always be the private, probably at least slightly bad. But But yeah, I don’t know. I mean, personally, I don’t feel that I know that I’m a little biased, because I grew up Catholic, but I see it as just as, I don’t know, just as misguided as every other religion. And just as many, you know, I don’t want to say just as misguided or just as anything, but like, to me, all religions have some component that they’re probably getting right and some component that they’re probably getting wrong. And they are essentially the same thing with different names and different terminology and different descriptions. Sure. So. So yeah, I don’t know. I just think there’s a lot of Christians, and so therefore, there’s inevitably going to be a lot of bad Christians just because there’s a lot of them.

So that makes sense. Are you familiar with the term deconstructing? Have you heard that in reference to the faith?

I’ve heard it I don’t really know much about it. To be honest, though.

Okay. No, that’s fine. It’s something that I do you guys use Tick tock, are you into the tick tock scene? No. Why are we trying not to, I’m turning this off, we’re done, we’re done.

It’s amazing. It’s amazing. I don’t do tic tocs. I’ve done a few. But it’s, it’s amazing.

So I think my exposure to the deconstructionist movement is because of Tick Tock. As a person of faith, my Tick Tock algorithm knows that, that I have some level of faith based on the videos that I watch on the platform. So now I’m also being served up videos of Christians who are essentially distancing themselves from the faith because of how the the radical right has co opted Christianity. And so there’s a lot of deconstruction going on. And it’s just super interesting to me that this majority religion, the younger folk are really starting to distance themselves from it. So I’m really interested in seeing what the next 20 years looks like, as more young people come of age and are adults and making decisions about how they’re going to raise their family and what role faith is going to play in that. Christianity may be the majority religion now, but I think those days are coming to an end. Zack?

Well, I was just gonna ask, do you think well, I guess a to two little things. Do you think that that’s only Christianity? Or do you think that’s just deconstructionism of religion in general and kind of a push back against religion in general Brandon had mentioned at one point, it was a real millennial thing to say, like, I’m not religious, but I’m spiritual. And I kind of laughed when he said it on our episode, but like, it’s true, you know, it’s happening more. But then also, what are your thoughts on it? Do you think that the, the more radical right is hijacking it? Or do you see that more as the loud minority that really isn’t a threat to Christianity, and that this is kind of just a misperception driven by social media and you know, loud people and whatnot?

I think there’s both to a certain extent, I think that I am legitimately concerned about some of these radical right now close closely attached they are to Christianity and, you know, wrapping the cross in the American flag and not being able to separate nationalism from Christianity. Now, I’m all for patriotism and loving your country. But as far as I can tell, in Scripture, Jesus calls us to be about his kingdom first, not America. And so it’s both for me, I definitely see Christian nationalism as the biggest threat to the church right now. But there are far more who are not as vocal who are really striving to live like Jesus did. And as he calls us to so as far as religion dying out Truthfully, I don’t have much exposure to other religions. So I wouldn’t really be able to say whether or not that’s the case, but

I totally agree Ben, I was gonna say the same thing I have no idea I’m I we always tease Ben sheltered Ben but shelter Jason over here. I don’t know much about other religions either. I need it for what

it is. There’s a new Buddhist temple, but it’s in a storefront. So I think some of the religions that kind of favor more of that spirituality, versus the I don’t know, the dogma of religion, I think those are going to continue to grow but I think maybe the religions that are so focused on the dogma and the this is how it is and and there’s no other way I can see that being threatened by critical thinking and, you know, growth in America so

well, I feel like this conversation has had a had a few thoughts came to my head. Well, would you say that, um, would you say that Christmas is an example of how it was one thing and you won’t even you won’t even label it or? Well, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t label as the extreme right, taking over dollar defending Christmas. Like it just became this more holistic warming thing, rather than being some type of I guess plot. Or it might be just the change that goes along with having this much of a mass and then having a religion back behind it, but I almost went You were a fly on the wall two conversations Zack and I had a recent show. I forgot I forgot the name of the fellow Zack. Dylan, Dylan Dylan Bible conversations podcast, right Bible conversation podcast where we had, we have the good and bad where we talked about a bit of Christianity. Then we talked about the Barry mentioned, the aggressive association with the KKK, and the consistent molestation on the on the more Catholic priests side, going through that back and forth. So I think that’s echoing in our little social media world. And it’s, I think that critical thinking thing is starting to come in ways that we didn’t necessarily expect.

Yeah, one thing I had to bring out Brandon, this is said a while back, you I’m surprised your response of Joel olsteen. You’re like, I’ll do your thing. Like, do you really believe that? Like the capitalism of religion? I mean, the way you were like, yeah, that’s fine. I’m like, I hate that guy.

Well, no, cuz I my mother and I, myself, I used to love hearing him talk. It was the southern drawl that was the hair was like a million streaks in his mind. But I just like was seeing creflo dollar ask his congregation for $110 million for a jet and then got the jet. I think everybody’s in on the game, so to speak.

Yeah, those guys. I feel like ruin Christianity like that does. That’s not what Jesus is about. He’s

like the people who walk around or at least who did I don’t. I remember I BWI saw someone, someone felt welcomed by my presence because they never introduced to a black person before. He showed me his up something that he passed that his granddad passed down to him. And it was a it was a green satin. kkk mask. And if you know about the colors, that’s all high color. Oh, that’s a high it’s that’s I think that’s one of the higher grand wizards I did a week we sat in a room. I watched like six hours in the KKK in the beauty it’s done to America. So trust me when I say yes. So it is very much so I want I wonder if people think it’s not real. And I hate I. I wonder where this is dysplasia the word. I don’t know what it is. But this assumption that nothing’s happening. We don’t know what this is we we have no idea what you’re talking.


Yeah, that all that well, speaking of kkk No, that’s a bad transition. Jason. We’re getting we’re getting up on time. And I only say that because I have to edit this. So I don’t know how much editing you guys do. But I actually go through it all in like, painstakingly, the, you know, the lip smacks. And some of the arms I take out some of my leaving. I don’t know, I’m pretty detailed. I mean, we have a media company too. So that’s maybe that’s why I do it. But that being said, let’s talk about George Floyd. And that just what went down? what your thoughts are on it? Are you glad? I mean, I’m assuming you’re glad the result, but I was just thinking more about, I was so worried about unrest, even in my city of Grand Rapids as is, as I knew that something would happen if if things didn’t go the right way. Brandon, I’d like to get your, you know, just your general consensus and thoughts around that.

I work in a field where the neck and the spine, anything in that area is priority number one, is procedures where if we see 30 seconds of a delay, we shut everything down with the patient up. We’re back to square one. So to imagine and then the correction of nine minutes on one’s neck is a visual, and I because I have yet to hear the whole thing. Because I will never click the whole thing. That’s the amount to hear someone die is an interesting thing that a human can experience in the 21st century. Um, in regards to the case, um, the American justice system has made a decision that bettered the nation as a whole justice was served, but I feel like it’s gilded I don’t mind that it’s gilded. I don’t mind them thinking what would be the repercussions if we how many, how many targets can we lose? How many police stations can we lose? How many shootings Can we go through? How many potential riots on the Capitol? I feel like they have to make a solid decision and say, listen, we’re not risking any of that. He has to be guilty.

So you’re so you’re saying that you think that I mean? So in theory, those the people on the jury were not tampered with. But are you feeling like they in their soul thought that way? or?

Yeah, I feel like this is a chain of command, right? I feel as if a lot of the people in the jurors had to make it because they know then they knew the name George Flint always wonder when you hear, like those who did the OJ Simpson trial, or those who did these case? How do you not hear that? And like some individuals were describing to me the basis, and I was like, What? If I were to use poor misguided judgment, with no factual basis, I’m thinking of three black guys in there. I think they’re gonna nod their head and listen, and do all the proper and legal and responsible things as a juror and make that men guilty, because there’s just, there’s just something about it. It’s just like, and I and I get the role of a lawyer. I feel like Oh, how do they say this? Their job is to make their client happy, right? Not jail, do what you got to do play the performance. It’s literally a play, do what you want to do. But he has to go to jail, because it will cause better will still, it will. I’m glad he’s in jail. Unfortunately,

I am. I’m actually really glad that you brought that up, because I kind of felt that a little bit. I’m like, I think they just made him guilty. And I didn’t want to say it. I didn’t want to say it because I felt bad about that. I hope that the justice system did the right thing. But in the back of my head, I’m like, I mean, he is guilty, clearly. But I mean, when you when you when you get into a courtroom, there’s things you have to follow it, you can’t there’s no emotion there, right? It’s this, this, this and this. And I was I was super worried that it wasn’t going to go that way. And then when it did, I was actually shocked.

Did you watch the trial? Did you or did you guys watch the trial? I do not get involved in that.

I watched brief Recaps of it. I didn’t watch it, you know, long segments by any means that

I watched parts of it. I watched a bit at the beginning. And then a bit at the end mostly, I actually I actually feel pretty substantially different than brand. And I think I think that I agree with a lot of what you guys were saying about the the the public sentiments potentially influencing the case. I think the two there are two separate questions. And the first is that is there sufficient evidence that he was guilty or not guilty of or rather that he was guilty of the charges? And then the second question is whether justice was served, whether whether he actually retained his right to due process and justice and equal treatment and all that. I think that so as far as the charges go, I was out outside of the potential influences on the jury and all of that I was actually kind of surprised by the result. I think that so the way that the system works is right, it’s beyond a reasonable doubt. I think that you can show I think that there’s a case that can be made that can show beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty of manslaughter Yeah, I think with the evidence that was presented it’s hard to say beyond a reasonable doubt that he had either intent to perform felony assault or intent to kill or you know, whatever. And I think that murder it’s hard for me to say truly that with beyond a reasonable doubt that he is actually guilty of it. So as far as the ruling goes, I was a bit surprised i think that you know, the it would have been just manslaughter as far as the influences though I just think that there’s there’s there are too many potential factors right now for me to be confident in saying that justice was served I mean you had people like if we’re just focusing on during an after the trial you had people like Maxine Waters talking about the case you had people like Joe Biden who even after even though he waited until the the jury was was deliberating right every one of them had their fucking cell smartphone every single one of them had the capacity to see the President of the United States say we hope that they have the right answer to these these charts

What right did they didn’t they like I don’t know they sent them I think they take all that away It’s not supposed to have that was taken away.

I don’t know well, so I don’t know if they were sequestered though that’s the thing I don’t know why Wayne I so for the oj case, they sequestered them for 200 plus days I don’t remember the exact number but they sequestered them for 200 and that meant Yeah, no internet no phone no anything. I don’t know if that was the case here it may be and I could be wrong I don’t know why there was there. But But even outside of that, you know not relocating the case to somewhere other than the city that it happened in. You know, the fact that now if we look at before the trial I mean, the city burn down yeah, city burned down because of this. How could that not influence the jerseys So I don’t know, I think as far as the the questions of whether justice was served, I mean, I’m a hesitant No, I just because I don’t know with all those other factors and as far as the charges. I mean, I think that the manslaughter charge is most likely justified. I the the murder ones I’m not so sure that said I don’t want to make it sound like I think Shelvin is innocent. Oh, he is morally is to be held accountable. He is guilty of that. As far as legally though, I think that this was mishandled. I have some problems with how it was.

Yeah, if you look at the actual facts and take the emotion out, I agree with you. But the guy’s a piece of shit. I mean, I’m glad he’s off the street. Like he’s clearly had a record of being abusive and everything like that, but I totally agree with you. Yeah, it just, it felt weird. I’m glad I’m so glad that it turned out the way it did. I mean, selfishly. It was even though and Minnesota as far away from Grand Rapids when that all went down. I mean, our city was, I mean, it didn’t not as bad as Minnesota, but we had issues like, yeah, this is my city, like what is going on? And I totally get the right to do that. But it always just makes me so bummed out when shit burns to the ground.

Yeah, yep. This has been great. I wish we could, we should like start a side project where we I’m cast with all four of us, dude,

I was so excited to recorded you guys. Like we just love you guys so much. I don’t know. I’d love to do a side project. I don’t know what it would be. But as long as I don’t have to edit it or anything that I’m in, right. If I can just sit down in front of a mic.

I’m totally in. Nice. Yeah. Well, we’ll start wrapping it up here. But just wanted to give our guests you guys have to say what needs saying podcast. If you have any closing words that you’d like to leave with our listeners, before we wrap this thing up, I’d like just give it give you that opportunity.

Zack, I’ll let you do the very final plugs or closes. But I leased to your fans, I would say you guys have chosen a very respectable duo says go to your main podcasting. These guys are amazing. I love getting Jason’s perspective. I love games Ben perspective, it’s always new. And I’m always capturing a new perspective and seeing how the world looks in your eyes. And I always love that I love to see how the world appears to others. And I think that’s what we try to capture. On our podcast. We try to see it how you see it through your eyes. And then we talk about that. Conversations. We have a lot of people at least online if you say you know do you come with your questions before? Or maybe you should write a different question. No, they’re all genuine. All of this was genuine. All this came a Ron authentically a night you can feel that you ever had a conversation with someone? And you’re like I’m forcing this this? Yeah. We can all grab coffee, grab a drink. You could do a flu. You could do a food I would hang out with you guys. It’s effortless. Check us out. Zach take it away.

Yeah, now I want a second that for sure. I love being on your guys’s show. We’d love to do more together in the future. And we’ll have to have you guys back on ours too. But yeah, I mean, you know, final thoughts on the episode I don’t know just one thing to your listeners. Just Just don’t be a dick. don’t cancel people that are undeserving of it. Or if you think they’re deserving of it look inward and look at yourself and see whether you want to be canceled for that you know, don’t don’t generalize right when it comes to religious people don’t generalize when it comes to a religious people. You know, everything that we’ve touched on, or at least a lot of what we’ve touched on is just kind of focused around generalizations and canceling and these things, look up, do yourself a favor, look up logical fallacies, study them a little bit and just kind of do your best to employ that in your you know, in your conversations that you’re having emotion comes up and emotions important. And it’s important to empathize and all of that emotion and logic. It’s hard to allow them to coexist, though. So keep in mind your balance depending on what kind of conversation you’re having. Sometimes it’s a little more appropriate to shift the balance to be a little more empathetic a little more emotional. Other times maybe not, you know and so we love that you guys do that and we can do that when we come on here and we can have these conversations it’s been fantastic. And you know if any of your listeners want to check us out, we’re the same way need saying podcast we are on Instagram and Facebook at say what needs saying Twitter is say what needs And we’re pretty much everywhere else everywhere you listen to podcasts, we’re probably there so

yeah, so when you guys record Do you do this live now every time when I’m like, is that how you’re recording the shows now or I didn’t know if you started doing that from the beginning or this is an added thing.

We started doing them live more frequently. I think then we had some technical difficulties and so we shifted back to doing them non live. Yeah, so hopefully ideally, I think it’d be cool to do them live more often. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

The whole show no sneeze but then like one second. I gave you I gave you a parting editing gift.

I always at least see at least that we saw in videos everyone stopped talking So raise your sneeze would be isolated. Email for someone’s birthday. My birthday. Yeah. Well, yeah. Thanks again, guys. We super appreciate you guys coming on. And, yeah, we’ll catch you down the road. As always, thank you

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