Transcription #120

Hi guys, thank you so much for listening to the threads podcast real quick. I would love for you to support us on buy me a coffee. If you love threads and you love the content that we get out by supporting us that helps us keep going in our mission to reduce stigma mental health, mental mental health, mental health. Talk about uncomfortable conversations faith and and of course mental health. If you go to buy me a coffee slash threads, podcast, you can do a one time or you can sign up for a membership for $10 a month you get all these extra perks, and we’d love for you to support us on buy me a coffee, also newsletter, go to threads, podcast, comm click newsletter and sign up for that. Everything and of the comings and goings of threads podcast with Ben and I are doing in our personal life, those kind of things, just some extra fun stuff for if you’re a super thready, you would love to read this. This conversation that we have today with Dave, Mike, Ben and I is an interesting one is probably the longest episode recorded. I don’t normally do intros for these. But this, I think this is a good conversation for people that aren’t Christians that are Christians or are struggling to be a Christian. So it definitely is not just for Christians. So I want you to hear that. Before you know you just unclick it and don’t play it because I think you’ll get a good conversation out of it or a good. What am I trying to say? It’ll be a good conversation for you to listen to being in any of those boats. So don’t not play it because you’re not a Christian, because you know that that doesn’t apply here. It’s definitely a conversation for everyone. So now that I just stumbled through that intro, enjoy the show. Hi, guys, welcome to threads, podcast, life unfiltered. Thank you so much for joining us this evening, or in the morning, or whenever you listen to us. Super excited. We’ve have we’re in studio and we have two guests tonight. One that’s while they both been on the podcast before, which is pretty cool. And we’re going to talk about them or we’ll introduce them in a little bit. But before we do that Ben’s going to introduce what threads is all about and where we’re going for the direction and then we’ll kind of do the

Well, thank you Jason. threads, podcast wife, unfiltered is a show all about authentic, transparent, meaningful conversation. We live in a world that is so divided by you name it, politics, especially faith, sports teams, I’m not a huge sports fan. But I hear that’s the thing. There’s just so many things that we can argue about and disagree about and, you know, hang with our people and everybody else goes with there’s it’s just so much division in our world. We wanted to create a space where that doesn’t exist, where we can talk about things that matter where we can talk about things that are uncomfortable, and have it be okay to do that. So that’s why we created threads. The idea behind the name is there are far more things in life that tie us together than there are those that pull us apart. So we want to focus on the threads that hold the sweater together and not the thread that comes loose and you pull it and everything unravels. I haven’t used that in a long time now

because no, Weezer’s on

Weezer, so Okay, all right.


sorry, I need to again sheltered Ben we need that Stinger because he doesn’t know Weezer. I

know who Weezer is named listen to their like, they did a blue sweater. That’s the sweater Song. Yes.

It’s like their most popular one.

No. Okay. All right. I know the song names. Okay.

I will sing it for you later.

Thank you a private comms concert with Dave but not not

not on the podcast. No.

And Dave and I are like, We’re the same age. So you guys are youngins?

Yeah, you know,

you’re what 3637 37

Okay, well Weezer still on today?

Yeah, it is.

They had a new album come out. They did the total good. They did. love that song. I know that song. So anyway, sweaters aside. This is a place where we can have conversations and find things that unite us in a world that seeks to divide us. The three main topics that we cover on this show are faith, uncomfortable conversations and mental health. All of those things, again, can be very divisive. We want to prove that you can talk about them without hating each other at the end of the conversation. So tonight, we will be spending most of our time in the faith in uncomfortable conversation buckets. And we’re so glad you’re here tonight. And I’ll throw it back to Jason.

Yeah, I just want to introduce my guests. They both been on the podcast before one actually has a podcast. So Dave, thank you for coming on. Again. Dave and I have been friends our wives know, our wife’s and I go to high school together, you his wife and me went to high school together 1994 unity Christian. And, and so that we kind of became friends. And then we’ve kind of hung out here there and stuff. And so Ben was or Dave was on the show, we talked about not Bitcoin. GameStop GameStop. So the uncomfortable conversation of money. Well, thank you for coming on again. You’re welcome. All right. And then we have Mike vandrie, Dutch, tall, very Dutch see not blue in Hazel,

grayish blue, Hazel.

Okay, like all the eye colors and likes not blonde. So, and he has the pie while you just do your thing.

Okay, I’m gonna do my thing. Well, I am the host of the skeptical pastor podcast, I was bullied into starting by Jason and badly bullied peer pressure, all sorts of things. But it’s an awesome time. Basically, it’s me, as a youth pastor, dealing with doubts and questions that I have about the Christian faith and religious crap trying to create a safe place for people to be honest with their doubts, because I think it’s important that we are honest with them instead of hiding them. And that’s kind of a lot of the things that we’re going to talk about tonight. So before we do that, we’re gonna have a little icebreaker. And this is what we’ve kind of transitioned into doing instead of this long drawn out thing right now. And

we’ll try to keep it short tonight, because we have four of us. But how are each of us showing up tonight? How was your week? How was your day? How are you feeling? Ben? You can go first?

Yeah, well, today has been an interesting day. I’m in my second week, just wrapped up my second week on the new job. And just yesterday, I was finally assigned some training modules like they finally figured out. Oh, yeah, this is how we onboard people. Well, what

do you been doing for the last two weeks

sitting on my computer waiting for a call? No, I’ve been creating lists of customers. I want to go after emailing people that I worked with in the past damak. But you can only do that for so long. And so honestly, I I worked maybe I hope nobody listens to this carefully. You really want to say anything? About half the days probably well, what

are you supposed to do is if your employer has not given you tasks? Yeah, or stuff to do? Or you’re like, what are you supposed to call them? email them every hour?

And what am I supposed to do, bro? bated breath. Exactly. So it’s such a nice shift. I went from a commission only job where I had to be selling or else I wasn’t making any money to a job where I have a bass like what is this? This is nice. So even though I didn’t do a ton, I got paid for it. So yeah, works. That’s good. So my brain must have been a little bit fried after that, because I took a nap at like for big boy. And I was thinking I had a meeting at 530 that I had to get to. And so I rushed out the door at five o’clock to get there on time. And I show up. And this is a meeting with a couple that I’m going to officiate at their wedding next month. I get the I get to the restaurant where we’re supposed to talk about the details and they’re not there. And so I send her a message. Hey, are we still on for tonight? She writes back. I thought we said Saturday night, who said Hawk word. Oh, well, look at that. I just looked at our messages. It’s Saturday night. I’m sorry to bother you. And then she said something along the lines of please make sure you have the right date for the wedding. Oh, I didn’t need you there. Yeah,

that’s not good for a bride.

Yeah. So I assured her that. I’ve got the whole day booked off. I’m not going anywhere else. I’ll be there on your wedding. I’m real sorry. I showed up early for our little dinner date.

Yeah, I feel like you need to like buy them dinner tomorrow when you go just to smooth it over a little bit. So yeah,

that was my Friday night and then I just ended up eating a bowl of soup and chillin by myself at Panera for a little nice introverts dream. Yeah.

What about you Dave? How are you coming in tonight?

Well, I’m as you know, I’m a little nervous.

Yeah, for sure.

This is my first time really in a podcast studio wearing headphones.

Yeah, headphones are big thing.

The other big thing they’re kind of weird. Like I feel a little strange but yeah, right. But I’m happy like excited. Two reasons. One is this has been a dual purpose. Visit. So I’ve been spending time with my daughter who’s a freshman at Calvin University now. So we spent some time Thursday night and today, you know, we’re just kind of in between our classes doing lunch and breakfast and things like that. So she’s upstairs now entertaining Megan. Yeah, we got to do some dad daughter time. And then obviously to do this podcast. So yeah. And as we were kind of talking, I don’t get to talk much about religion in our household because as I told you, my wife’s theology is I don’t give a shit ology. Yeah. So whenever this kind of conversation comes up, she’s usually out of there pretty quick. So I talking to myself or to the dog, and no one’s talking back. So yeah. And I’m like, I think I got something here. I think I figured something out. Or I really don’t understand this. And there’s no one there to listen. So

kinda sounds like he needs a podcast to like,

you know, we talked about it before the show. I’m thinking I do. But I told you, I think I have a couple sheets of paper written down here. And when I’m done, that’s about all I got. All right. Well, I don’t think would be much more to talk about to be one or two shows. And are those fallen off your head? You can tighten those up, but then they’re too tight.

On this. I see. You’ve already adjusted him like twice so you can adjust. Move

on. Move on to Mike.

Mike, how you coming in tonight.

Kind of kind of exhausted kind of crawling in here tonight, which is sad, because I’m looking forward to this conversation by just a long week with work but then on the board. I mean, I had three different times that I three different days. I did stuff for the board I’m on and I’m kind of over it like this week this week. Oh man. So I think I added hours. I was like seven, seven or eight hours. extra help. And I was born which is great. But was not what I was looking forward to coming in but I have my coffee here. Yeah. Good Speedway. See are you doing? You’re not boozy. Like Ben, I’m not boozy because I am a youth pastor. Not a sales manager.

balling over there not doing work. Right.

I just want to announce my last name is Dykstra. I think I’m more Dutch than bindery. Oh, no, Van van is dike Street. But I mean, how many dike streets are there? It’s like the most common name. Really? One of them? Yeah.

Dykstra. dykeman Van Dyck vandrie.

I mean, there’s been Derby street by the deck, and my mom’s maiden name was vanderwaal. So I got to come from both sides. So Oh,



I’m coming in.

Okay, the top most common Dutch surname de Reese is the first one. I don’t see. I don’t see dike on any anywhere on this devries vanderburg. Van. Well, maybe this is Van Dyck spelled where D ij. k. Yes, that is is is that the Dutch spelling of Van Dyck. Okay, so you’re number three. So good job. But I’m coming in tonight. I’m excited. I was actually a little nervous. Having everyone in the studio just from a professional standpoint, it can be a challenge to edit. So I’m not looking forward to that be honest with you. But I’m looking forward to the conversation. I had a pretty good Okay, week found out some pretty I’m going to blue ball y’all right now. So I found out some pretty epic news. Like, epic. And I’m not going to tell you tonight because it’s not the time, but it will come out on the podcast, the next personal podcast, I’ll talk about it. still in process still in process. So that was kind of an interesting thing. And then I had a second appointment with a psychiatrist yesterday, and I got prescribed some medication. And I’m taking my first dose tonight. So we’ll see how that goes. But other than that coming tonight, I’m excited. I’m ready to podcast. I actually cleaned the studio before it was a shit show in here. Like I game right there. There was crackers and crumbs and pop cans. And then that was atrocious. And yeah, so you’re welcome.

Yeah, thank you. Looks, looks amazing. Good. Like I could eat off of this table.

I would not advise that. But then Europe.

Yeah. Where do we go from here? Well, so the the idea behind tonight came about from Dave and Mike and Jason and I just having conversations about faith, and what does it mean to be a person of faith? And what does it mean to be a Christian like we hear this term tossed around quite a bit. I believe we all would identify ourselves as Christian around the table.

Everyone’s looking at me, I use the word Jesus believer.

Well, okay, we had the conversation in the car we had we had some pre talk. So as soon as you said Christian, I was like, Oh, boy, I was gonna raise it. No, no,

no, I kind of told all these guys that I’m the token heretic in the room. So I’m gonna say some Things probably tonight and some of you’re going to worry about my soul. But don’t worry about it because I grew up Calvinist. So I’m predestined. I’m going to be okay, frozen. I am one of the frozen chosen so I can do whatever I want. And I’m still going to make it. So

yes. So the idea for this show came about based on those conversations, and then just the fact that, for me, at least when I listened to a Christian podcast, it’s like dripping with evangelicalism. And with the exception of Mike show, where he’s willing to break down some big doubts and big questions. I feel like so many of the quote unquote, Christian podcasts are just, they just don’t do it. For me, I feel like there’s not a lot of authenticity or honesty behind it, there’s no room for doubt. It’s like thus saith the Lord. And this is it. So tonight, our goal is to have a conversation about faith about the Christian faith about Jesus, God, the devil wherever else we go. But we’re approaching this from the perspective of, we don’t have this all figured out. And none of us is gonna sit here tonight and pretend that we are the ruling authority on any of these topics. We just want it to be a space where we can be open and honest. And if we don’t understand, we can bring it up and talk about it. So that’s kind of the the purpose or the intent of tonight’s show. This fills our faith buckets, as well as our uncomfortable conversation. And who knows, maybe we’ll even throw in some mental health. That’s where we’re going. This is not intended to be a an interview, per se. It’s more of a long form. discussion, we’ll call it. So that’s where we’re headed tonight.

Able to compensate? Well, when you

switch, switch mic cords, and there’s a channel that’s out. I don’t really know. And now I’m recording the other channel that I don’t even need. I don’t even know that

I kind of want a bad part in there. Yeah, I

mean, what the f word? Yeah. No, we were like 15 minutes. And I can’t restart that too much. I just noticed it now. So before we continue, though, do you want to just lead the the initial where you want to go and or, you know what I mean?

Yeah, that’s the first question.

Yeah, I guess. Are you okay?

Is there like a? Like, wait, your turn type deal? Or is it No,

just jump in?

I mean, just don’t be rude. Yeah, rude. Yeah, just don’t interrupt somebody right there. Let them finish their thought and right.

Yeah. Okay. And eye contact can go a long way to so if somebody just in that or raise your hand, right? Yeah. ring a bell? Tap? No, no,

no tapping, no ring is

funny. Like, after I did atheism for Lent, we were kind of hanging out. And we were talking a little bit of theology, and I just kept raising my hand go, and I know God is dead. He’s dead. There’s a little bit of drinking, you

screwed God’s dad. So

Alright, let’s get going on that. All right.

Well, the start us off tonight, let’s just, I’d like to go around the room. And let’s just each give our brief keyword brief definition of what the word Christian means to us. And if you’re like Dave, and you don’t like that word, maybe tell us what word you prefer in place of it. Because we live in such a crazy world where words have multiple meanings. And what somebody thinks a word means is not in line with the other person’s definition. So just make sure we’re all on the same page, or at least know where we’re coming from on this word. We’ll share our thoughts on what it is to be a Christian, and I’ll go

first, that was quite the brief introduction. Wow. It’s gonna

be a long episode.

Ben doesn’t know what the word brief means.


He was a former pastor. Right? True.

But my friends were actually very, very brief. Like, to the point of, oh, shoot, we got to tell the children’s ministry that the parents are coming, because we’re

so early if you are under 20, that’s brief if you’re over 20. Yeah. All right. What’s your definition of Christianity?

To me being a Christian is intentionally living in such a way that is different from the world and following the example of Jesus Christ.

Okay, Mike.

Yeah, somebody who follows Jesus and somebody who lives under the the reign of King Jesus. That’s how I briefly describe it.

Yeah, so as I mentioned, I like the word Jesus believer and it’s really the connotation that goes with with Christian when you think of Ned Flanders, on The Simpsons, so he’s a christian right away. That’s my visceral reaction. Yeah, so, but yeah, I think it’s where truth is not a set of propositions to be defended, but a person to follow. Like, Jesus, nice.

I don’t frickin know.

Dude, like, if I

can get one, one persona, I really don’t know what it means I actually when I hear that word Christianity, I have the same response letters you because like I grew up in this Christian home that were full of hypocrites. You know what I mean? And so it’s hard for me to say, you know, I see why some people have when they hear that word Christian or Christianity, they have that responsive like you gross. But what it means to me is, I think a little bit from everyone that said, you know, your follower of Jesus tried to live like Jesus did the best you can. So that’s kind of where I’m at with that

nice. From there, we’ll jump into the shallow end. And, again, just make sure we’re on the similar pages. So when it comes to God and Satan, and their existence or non existence, I think that’s an important place for us to start as well, just so we can all know where we’re coming from. So in my mind, if God exists, then Satan naturally exists to I feel like, in there’s good, there’s evil. Exactly. So it’s in the created order, there’s day, and there’s night, there’s hot and there’s cold, there’s, everything seems to have an opposite. So naturally, God has an opposite. And in my mind, and in my theology, that’s the devil. So does Satan exist? Yes. Where did he come from? The way I’ve been raised. Honestly, I haven’t really spent a lot of time researching this. But based on how I was raised, and what I was taught, Satan was a fallen angel, who started out as Lucifer and fell because he was jealous of God’s power, essentially. And so he fell in became what we know as the devil. So that’s my take.

Who’s up this jump in?

We’re not gonna we’re not gonna rotate.

something to say and just jump in.

No, Dave, you can go next. I was just adjusting my mic. And

I say this is where you got to ring the heretic Bell? Yes, bring it bring it is where it might start to get a little heavy. That’s all right. And this is not meant to be argumentative. I want to be very clear. That’s not what this is about. This

is a discussion,

I believe inside the Jesus tradition or Christianity. There’s some there’s room for maybe a disagreement, but there’s there’s different streams, right. And I have found the stream that I like to swim in, or I feel I’m constantly swimming upstream is not well accepted, or Well, like I said, as soon as I start talking, because that heretic Bell will go off. So So okay, I want to talk. So first of all, my, my, my picture of God comes from a book by john Caputo, called the folly of God, where there’s really four ways of understanding God. And I think it really is kind of along the line of Anselm, the ontological argument that God is something bigger than we can imagine. So I don’t think of God in terms of the Judeo Christian, he’s a dude up there. I just think it’s bigger than anything we can imagine. So there has to be a God because I can it I don’t want to get into it, because I’ll get all tongue tied. But so but the but four ways of understanding God, one, and this is the one that I typically reject more as God as being a super being. That’s the big other, you know, the big guy in the sky, that’s gonna be there to judge you. In the end, I think of God more as being a hyper being. And the analogy here is if there’s a ship inside the ocean, a sunken ship inside the ocean, the ship contains a fraction of the ocean. Right? But the ocean encompasses the entire ship. So in other words, everything is God. You know, God touches everything, even the devil. Well, we haven’t gotten the double Yeah, okay. And one of my, the two ones that I think are the best, in terms of my best understanding of God is one as being the ground of being basically it’s the whole you’ll, they will know we are Christians, by our love, we encounter God through our acts of service to one another. That’s where we encounter God the Most. Or God has an event in terms of we as a society tend to fight that an eye for an eye, right? So So this nation does this to this nation. And then this day, something starts up the crazy cycle, where we encounter God is when and this is really coming from the Jesus tradition is when Jesus says no, no, no, turn the other cheek. When grace meets violence, when peace meets War, when hatred is met with forgiveness, that’s where we start to get a deeper understanding of God. So that’s where I think of, so I don’t picture God as this person, I picture God as these events, this ground of being this hyper being, that his fingerprints touch everything, his her whatever we want to call it. Regarding the devil, I don’t believe in Satan. I actually believe in evil. I think humans are great are capable of great evil. But I believe that the devil or Satan was really a literal use, or literature use. Almost like a, the writers didn’t know how to describe evil. So they wrote about a snake. Yeah, the writers didn’t know how to describe evil. So they talked about Lucifer, or about Satan. When Jesus was tempted in the desert. I don’t know if it was a literal Angel talking to Jesus, or it was Jesus was tempted by evil, but why wouldn’t it be literal? There were other there were good angels. Why? Why couldn’t it be? I’m a naturalist man. But you believe in good angels. But you couldn’t believe that, that I don’t really believe in angels. Okay, well,

no, so this is interesting. So like, I’m, I’m trying to piece some things together. Right. And I think it’s good conversation. Um, so you said your Jesus follower, or Jesus person. So do you think when Jesus was talking about God, he wasn’t talking about an actual being?

I guess my my straight up answer would be no, Jesus is God. Jesus wasn’t a version of God, Jesus is God. So Jesus just by being God, and when he talks about God the Father, I just don’t know if there is a big other verses, but there’s something there.

So you don’t separate the two. And I mean, it.

No, I don’t. I mean,

it goes back and forth, right? There’s spots in the Bible where they are one that they talk about him as one and they, then it’s hard to not separate them though, when Jesus was on it’s very weird. When he was on Earth. You know what I mean? Like, how was that God? And Jesus, it’s kind of weird, right? I

mean, we’re gonna get stuck. No matter how you decide to break it apart, you’re going to get stuck. Right? You know, it goes back to the crucifixion, which we haven’t gotten that far yet. But go to the crucifixion. Did God abandoned Jesus on the cross? I don’t think so. I think Jesus, is God on the cross

through us having those conversations with himself.

No, because that would be like psychedelic.

Well, but it kind of leads to that already.

I mean, yeah, I guess like when you think of God is the big other. Yeah. Now it’s like, oh, Who’s he talking to? It’s just Jesus just has this count. Jesus is God Jesus understands that which we cannot understand.

True. Yep.

So but but, you know, so But for me, like isn’t that big? Other I just have a hard time with that.

Okay. So where I’m trying to understand this is great stuff. Where is Jesus now? Because Jesus was on earth? where’s where’s Jesus? Now? For you?

To me? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I hope and I want to be very clear, I don’t believe that Jesus is gone. I hope that at the end of this whole thing, basically, my stances Mike and, and Ben and Jason is, either there’s no God, or there is a God, and this God is full of love. And in the end, it’s all gonna work out. And I don’t need to figure out where Jesus is. or God is a bastard. It’s one of those three things. Because if it’s like this, God is so angry that he had to sacrifice his son in order to, to to be in contact with me, but I don’t want to be by him. For me, it’s that simple. So I really have a hard time with the whole atonement process, I think of it is God was up something. You know, I believe in the resurrection. I believe in that Jesus died. He was resurrected, and God was up to something. But I just don’t know if I buy the whole atonement theory. You know, and then where’s Jesus now? I don’t know. I don’t know. Certainly. He’s alive. And well. He’s, he’s in this room right now. Right? He’s, he’s in Africa, he’s all over the place. So his, his soul is living and breathing. It’s been one of the biggest impacts a human being, or God has on history period. So certainly alive and well. So So do you think that the Trinity exists that the Father and the Holy Spirit exists? They must. Okay. They must I just can’t describe it or understand it, so I don’t spend any time on it. So okay. You know, is I think the Holy Spirit’s interesting because the Holy Spirit is it when people talk about this God still inspire Why aren’t there any more books? Why you all this other stuff? Why doesn’t God come and talk to us anymore? Well, we have the Holy Spirit. So we get to feel God every day. Yeah, we’re prior to Pentecost. God showed up in doses, you know, instead of just enveloping his whole creation with the Holy Ghost.

So, alright, so anyways, Mike, you need answers. Yeah,

no, it’s good. We’ll get back. Well, I’m

sure we’ll return to this conversation.

There’s like 10,000 things there. Yeah, where I want to go, let’s,

let’s not focus on like everyone answering. Let’s just let it go.

Well, I just wanted to give

I mean, bring it bring it back around if it gets to cuckoo bananas, but I mean, cuz I’m feeling Honestly, I’m feeling like this is way over my head. So I would prefer not to answer I want to I don’t want to be called upon.

I just wanted Mike to be able to have a chance to share his mic can jump in ideas. One part of it.

I mean, I, I love hearing from Dave because it’s, I think it brings up some things but like, if I’m looking at God, right, the clearest example we have, I think we can agree on is Jesus right? Like, and I think I think that is what what Christianity has talked about it is it is God in the flesh. And so we can see God we can tangibly see God. But then we see Jesus talking with the Father, like he goes out and he prays, which there wasn’t somebody there with him. So there must be some spirit being that that Jesus is talking to otherwise he’s talking to himself. He talks about the Holy Spirit coming after him. to His disciples, that’s what we do. We we pray to somebody that just like Jesus did. Yeah. Because Because Because Yeah, cuz there’s a spirit. Right, right spirit that exists. Yeah. So yeah, you’re in with that where there’s a spirit. And so yeah, I think we see in Jesus, but I think God’s much broader than that. So when you talk about God, being the super being I go, I think Jesus said talks about God as a whole being the Superman and that’s weird, weird with the Trinity, right three in one is this most confusing thing if you ever want to make your mind hurt, so I started thinking about that for too long. And but that’s where, like, my skepticism knows, I don’t get that. But I’m in the place of, I see it in Scripture. Just because I don’t get it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Because there’s a lot of things I don’t understand, like you talk about stocks and how those work like I think stocks are like this fairy tale thing.

It is a fairy tale. There are X’s and O’s that literal, not accurate physical

model. And so to me, like you, you, you have to spend your whole time with this fake money. And I’m going I don’t understand it. Now. That’s also why I’m not going to be filthy rich, ever. Because I don’t understand shorts and Long’s and whatever. But you’re in ministry and not sales. Yeah, man. But but also even I actually think a lot of people in finance probably just make up that they know. I don’t know. Dave, well, David’s smart. about finance. No, no. But when we’re talking about fighting, no, what I’m saying though, is that there’s things that I don’t just cuz I don’t understand that about God doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. If Jesus who I believe is God says, there’s a father, and there’s a spirit coming, and he’s gonna dwell within us. I have to go. I don’t get it. But I think Jesus is right, because Jesus rose from the dead and that trumps everything.

Yeah. And I just want to be very clear that I really I don’t want this to turn into an argument is I am not versed. It’s not I read, I read a lot. But I am not a pastor, first of all, and I’m not here to convert anybody. And I’m not here to convince anybody that I’m right. I hear just I want to have the conversation. Yeah, yeah, we’re sure that it bubbles up inside me. I go, I have these thoughts. And yeah, for me it I guess I think we’ll get there later. You know, in terms of when when we start talking about the Bible itself, because I think that’s on the agenda.

Oh, yeah, it is. Well, we’re kind of throwing the agenda out the window. No,

I I’m gonna use you as the, the the I’ll be the referee and around and like refocus. I did that with a Chris interview through Jason’s making it sound like Dave and I are gonna fight you,

Dave and I are just gonna be passionate because we love ideas.

Yeah, I was gonna sit back and let YouTube talk.

Well, that’s that’s what like, I’ve been joking about for a week because while I like this conversation, I’m not passionate about it. And that’s no offense to God or the devil or to Dave or Mike. I just, I just not and that’s just where that’s fair.

You sound like Jana. Dave, I don’t give a shit. You know my theology.

Nice. There we go. Or I’ve heard one I’m a pan. I forget how it’s actually

that no, it’s

it’s how things work out in the end. Yeah. millennialist There we go. Why millennial? millennial things will pan out in the end. I’ve never heard of

Anderson’s is what I heard.

There’s no such thing as pan millennials.

What do you get when you mix an agnostic Insomniac and dyslexic?

No idea really bad game show

something dog.

Somebody who stays up all night wondering if there really is a dog.

I was looking for my button when he was selling. I haven’t missed the punch line.


nice. All right, so let’s bring it back around. Dave, you mentioned the Bible. And I think that’s an important thing to talk about as well. So we can jump in there next since that’s kind of the text that Mike relies on. Well, I mean, we all do. But Mike has brought up a couple of points already. So we’ll kind of transition naturally to that point. Is the Bible trustworthy and reliable?

Yes. I also want to hear from Dave, I want to hear where Dave as on this, because I’m going to say yes, but

Well, he has to say us. No, I don’t get fired.

Oh, no, I just, I just think that’s the wrong way to describe the Bible. So I want to be very clear, I believe in the Bible. And I think it is a God inspired book. But the questions that I wrote down in response to your question, is like, we use words like inerrant and trustworthy and things like that. So here’s the question, do we describe a sunset as being inerrant? Do we describe your 70 as being trustworthy? Do we describe what when Robert Frost wrote Two roads diverged within a wood? Did he actually walk down the path and see two roads? And if he didn’t, does that make it less true of a poem? So what I see the Bible being a bunch of collections of old stories, and hymns, or songs, you know, songs, and poems, and old stories and ancient stories coming from all these different traditions? Yes, I think they’re true. Yes, I think they’re beautiful. And yes, I think there is, there is a guide to understanding God and all those things. But as soon as we use it as a history book, as soon as we use it, as this is what the Bible says. So therefore, you have to believe it. We run into all kinds of problems, because every one of us somewhere along the line draws a line and says, Yeah, I’m not following that one. Yes, sure. Although we all do somewhere,

you know, there’s no one out there even the pope that doesn’t draw that line, right.

That’s that that doesn’t apply to us anymore. Our society has moved beyond that. So my point is, for me, the Bible, I might draw the line way up here where I see Satan and I go, yeah, I think evils in the world, I just don’t think it was an actual fallen angel. Because actually, that’s not in the Bible. There really no account of a fallen angel in the Bible. That’s actually it comes from Daniel, the book of Daniel. And I think Daniel was talking about the Babylonian kings when he wrote those steaks. And later on, they discovered Oh, that must have been when Satan fell from the sky. But it was kind of ascribed to later, but I don’t think that was the point. So anyway, so So yes, I think the Bible is true. I just think the words we use to try to describe it our soul, they’re not good enough.

Interesting. Okay. I see where you’re coming from, Mike.

Yeah. So again, I’m on a totally different view with that. But and I think it starts with the New Testament. If If, if the New Testament is it isn’t true, I don’t I don’t care about the Old Testament, because of Jesus, because the especially with the Gospels, they’re writing about this person named Jesus, who claimed to be God, which is a big claim like either those claims are right, and what they’re writing is true. And what Jesus says about himself is true. Or like, it is just complete garbage in this Jesus guy, or what the things I made up are just crazy. And I shouldn’t base my life off of them. So I see, when they talk about Jesus, the words of Jesus, they capture the words of Jesus, again, to the capture perfectly, you know, every single word he said, or the over idea of his teaching, but they talked about him, he talks about being God rising from the dead. So I see it as a reliable thing. I see as a trustworthy thing. I see it as a thing that I’m going to base my life off. Now. Can I read it? Everything is when Jesus says the cut off of my right hand as he’s actually telling me to cut off the right hand or is Jesus really, Doris Jesus really a gate? Like is Jesus that? No, like, I have to read it in context, I have to understand so I think people really miss read it. I think even with Satan like, and a bunch of us I think, like Jesus talks about there being a falling star being Satan, like, so he does talk about this evil being but again, you know, I’m coming at it, of looking back at it and going, is this trustworthy? because growing up, this is what it is, and, and me, I’m like, I don’t just take anything. My parents had grown up. I’m like, I want to test that. So

one of or two words that I use with my girls, when we talk about the Bible, because we do talk about the Bible in our house and we can get a go that a different route, like how we kind of go about doing it. I use the two words. One is both. We, in terms of oftentimes when we talk about the Bible and science or the Bible, it’s I think the word both has got to be there. That is And that is very biblical that that God speaks to us in the Word of God, but also in the creation that he created.

Yeah. Romans one.

Yeah. And then the second thing is forward. And I think that’s the part that, and I’m not a biblical scholar, but the readings I do, but the whole thing of forward. So one of the things I’ve talked to my girls about, because they’re I raised three daughters, they’re all teenagers. And you we we all as a family struggle with women should be selling in the church, right? Yes. Well, we’re starting to make sense to me is when you look at it as what the Bible is moving society forward. So the fact that women were allowed in the sanctuary was a step forward for society. So what we look at today in 2021, when we read some of these words that are written that look backwards and barbaric, and like, how could we believe that stuff? Because Yeah, it’s it’s wrong. But when you look at it in context of when it was written, and realize that God took society as it was, and moved it a step ahead, that it actually was very liberal and forward thinking at the time. So so a lot of so what I think it’s my point to this is when we talk and talk about Jesus, yes, Jesus is God. But Jesus was still living in what is it? 40 bc or 4080? Yep, roughly. Yep. He was living in ancient times. So his understandings still be being human. We’re still not a 20th century, modern man as today. So some of the things he said, Yes, they were cutting edge. But when you try to put it in context, I just struggle with that.


So how can we this is what I always struggle with the Bible. Why? There’s no other book out there that we base our life on? You know, yeah, there’s history books, right. But I mean, it’s 2021. Like you brought up like, it’s totally different. Now we’re moving forward. Why is it that everyone has this as well, this is the written like, no one’s writing any more stuff. It’s the weirdest thing. It’s like this book. And that’s what I’ve always struggled with.

What you brought this up another podcast, but I know people are writing, but what are they writing? There’s so many inspired works out? Yeah. But I mean, it’s not considered the end all be all. But when you think of God as being the hyper being in terms of everything is in God,

well, then I can say the frickin water bottle that the the guy made. I mean, Ben uses that bullshit. excuse. Not excuse that was that was the right that excuse. He’s used that before. And I’m like, okay, that that doesn’t really help. What’s the word I got from Mike, that doesn’t help our pre Christian when you’re like, yeah, God made that water bottle.

But God didn’t stop talking as my point. Well, no, I

know, he didn’t. But why do we base religion on just this piece of literature? Just that one?

Well, it was it’s a story about Jesus.

Right? But it doesn’t apply to 2021. Other than like, you know, don’t murder don’t. Well, at some point

in time, the story has to stop. Right. I think the story continues to go on.

Yeah, but there’s like a revelation. That’s the last book of the Bible. It’s like,

okay, we’re done. Because that part of history was kind of over.

Yeah, I don’t.

There’s no more to write about that book. It’s kind of like well, why did the Harry Potter series and because the book ended?

Well, I mean, but the Bible Oh, man. Yeah.

Hold on. First of all, I need to get you another water. Second. You’re comparing Harry Potter in the Bible. Well,

there was an issue Jason, where we were at Great America, which is like Cedar Point. Yeah. And we were doing one of those flip trivia things. You know where you’ll hold your your iPhone on the gas question. Oh, yeah. Game is a fun game. Well, we did one on the Bible. And my kids sucked like they knew nothing we did on Harry Potter the new one wrong.

Going down.

A Harry Potter is excited. I’m not

gonna lie. It’s a good Oh, good. But But I guess from my perspective is God didn’t stop talking but that the art of history is written.

So the way you read the Bible is like everyone you they never talk about. Okay, I should never say they never because

the guy over here.

But you always hear about, like, all the religious stuff around it. You never hear about the people sent. I mean, you do hear about the people sitting but like, I don’t know, it’s just so different nowadays. It’s like, it’s really hard for me to go look into that Bible and like, this is how I want to live my life other than like being a decent human.

Right. Yeah. But But I guess I’m confused with you’re saying that that was that era. I mean, the Bible was written over like 1600 years, I mean, old testament to the end of the New Testament. So like, Why Why did you say that period of the Earth was done?

Well, it’s Yeah, I mean, that thank you for for calling that out. It’s to me the whole story. The Old Testament, the New Testament is all centered on one person, Jesus. Yep. And Jesus. Then we see the climax where Jesus I believe was crucified. I think that’s the climax. That’s resurrection right? And then you have the day new Ma, you know, the closing where they talk about why now we have the church, and how the church got started. And now I think this story should continue on in our lives. And that’s the point.

Yeah, and I think we’d agree the story will continue. But then what are we basing on? Like, there has to be. God is not going to go against what God said. So, because like I can say, the holy way is to punch Jason, but the Bible is gonna say no. And so I can’t say God gave me the the idea to punch Jason. Because Jesus clearly says, I shouldn’t turn the other cheek and let him punch me right again. But so I yeah, I guess I’m just to, to go opposite to say, we can move beyond it. Can we? If it’s God in the flesh, saying this is life? This is real life? That’s,

yeah, I’m certainly not saying move beyond it. And it doesn’t matter anymore. I’m just saying that that that to add to that story, I think we’re missing the point of the crucifixion of at the crucifixion is when the story went from this is a story about Jesus to this is a story about you. He makes a good point.

I just, I’m having trouble getting there.

Well, the trouble I have is that the Bible doesn’t end there, though, because it ends with the end time, which is the point wasn’t even the cross the point is that that that mean, the almost on the character, boy, probably gonna get fired. No, but I’m saying the crosses ended. The cross is the climax, but they’re still the finishing, where the whole point is that God gathers his people back up, it starts right back back

in the book of Revelation. Yeah, but that was a book written to seven churches in Asia. I just don’t think it was really about 10 times. I think it was just a real I personally think john was on acid

when he wrote his writing. So the Romans don’t know what he’s writing, right?

He’s doing that. But I just don’t think it was talking about well, here’s what’s going to happen at the end of the I mean, personally, I think, you know, the world’s gonna end is the sun’s gonna engulf the earth. That’s how it’s going to end its scientific, that the sun’s gonna blow up and it’s going to do is all up and we’re all the earth will cease to exist.

Well, which which, which is against what Scripture says that says, you know, there’s a purifying fire. But again, I mean, I think it can it mostly used to seven churches, like I’m not one of those who’s like, we’re living in end times. But the very end of it talks about, you know, the heaven and earth coming together the forever So, I mean, those seven churches never experienced that. So either john was completely wack. Or like he’s actually telling us something deeper.

No, you’re it. You’re right. Absolutely.

And thanks for the clarification. Just as a no. I didn’t know john wrote revelation.

You’re You’re good.

Actually, it’s not proven. He was okay. When you like, Oh, we assumed he did we assume it was the apostle john wrote it. Yeah, but

but it’s not proven man. My parents spent so much money on unity Krishna.

Not the Christian reading afterwards. Yeah. Because remember, the intellectual rabble? I love to read this crap.

Yes. Yeah. He’s got a great story about where we hadn’t here. I want you to tell the story. You told me in the car tomorrow.

Yeah, no, tomorrow, or tomorrow?


So Jason didn’t know the store.

Wait, wait, you got to talk about what you do on Friday. That’s how it got into that. We’re gonna

keep an eye on those rabbit holes. I will go down it. Sure. Okay, so I’ll change that. So really, what this came is I told Jason, I stopped going to church and what’s your I hope you’re hearing why it has nothing to do with me being against church, and the church is wonderful. I think there’s a great place. My problem is a person like me, really struggles there. Because there’s a lot of angry people at church that hear me talk and go, dude, you’re a heretic, you’re going to hell, please shut up. Please don’t talk. And I need to talk and say, Look, correct me if I’m wrong, or at least let me be who I am.

Just have a conversation, right?

And I understand you don’t want me teaching your kids, I get it. I’m

totally cool with

me as Sunday school kid, I do not want to be responsible for the soul of your child.

I take your class, like that.

So but but so I told so I stopped going. And mainly because I was so frustrated because this is who I want to be. But I can’t be it here. So what we do we and then Jason said, Well, how do you? How do you get spiritual edification? Because I

said that when I go to church, because that refreshes me and like, through COVID, I’ve really struggle with my Christianity because we haven’t done a lot like the live streams are just weird. You’re in your living room. It’s like whatever. The kids aren’t into it. So like how do you refresh your, your, your spiritual ness, and

I think I’m Jewish. Because it’s how the Jews do it. I mean, that’s rabbis raise. They argue they talk they go that you say it’s this way, Jesus half the time is going, you’ve heard it said this way. Well, I say it’s this way. Yeah. You know, that’s the Jewish religion. sighs I think I’m Jewish. So we actually started doing, I actually saw this it was from the armchair expert, my, my lacunas. Okay, she was interviewed and her and Ashton Kutcher, she’s like, I can’t do she’s Jewish too, which is like, I can’t do this, this this whole Sabbath thing we call Shabbat. And so they do this thing. And my family started doing it on Fridays at sundown, we light two candles. Jen and I each have a glass of wine. The girls join us and we read the Bible, which is not what Jews would do. They might read the Torah, Torah, but they’re not going to read the stuff that we read. Yeah. And then we talk about our weeks, kind of what you guys do, and say, Hey, otter weeks go, what did what did we do that we need to change? What do we you know, what do we need to celebrate? Just have, so it’s just a great time for us to really, I think, be in the presence of God. And what I was telling Jason is, during Advent, we read the stories of the four women, if you can’t hear this theme, raising three girls. Yeah, you know, so we read the stories of the four women that are listed in the genealogy of Jesus. Yeah, that’s good. And I was telling him about Tamar or tomorrow. I don’t know how you might say either way, they’re really just the way they do with any old testament or any name is just say it boldly. People will believe you because no one really knows

it. I

told Jason, I said, this is honestly this is the genealogy of Jesus. I said basically, that tomorrow was married to Judas oldest son, and he died. And then Jewish or Hebrew tradition was then the next one had to bear an offspring for for that wife. And the second son did coitus interruptus basically said, I’m balling out, and God struck him dead.


Well, you know, it was just funny how

it is, this isn’t the Bible, or the gods struck him dead. So the Judas, Judas, like, well, you can have my third son, but dude, it really is like, I’m not really gonna give them my third son. I mean, she’s already wiped out two of my kids. I’m not giving them the third. So so she so so basically, she goes, Well, he she figured out that he’s full of it. So she’s just up like a prostitute outside of the temple. Judah comes walking by Caesar goes, alright, give me some of that. And he gets her pregnant Sunday school with Daisy he gets pregnant and then he finds out his daughter was pregnant is basically ruining his name’s there’s like, we’re gonna execute her because she’s ruining my name. And you all do it. I got your cord here. I got your piece of your robe. So you want to think that one through when Jude is like that?

And she’s okay.

We’re good. And that’s the line. So the son born there. That’s the next line to bring us to King David, which ultimately brings us to Jesus. Yeah, that’s a great God story, man. Yeah. And and I was telling you, you know, how come this isn’t preached about? While we probably know cuz

nobody should be I want I think it depends where you are. I think that’s where we go to church, within churches becoming more of like, this is the real story. Yeah. in Scripture, because you’re talking about this, Mike. Sweet. Yeah, like, let’s talk about it talks about how from brokenness comes right? You know, God, right. And that’s our life.

These are, these are dirty, fun, God stories. And that’s what I want my girls to hear. And that’s what I want to hear. And I want to dig in and go, man, this is beautiful and awesome. And how wonderful is it to see how God takes our crap and makes it into something good. That to me is what what

Christianity is really all redemption, you know?

So I know we kind of went on that path. But Jason’s like, what?

Well, I was very interested in how he was talking about and I’m like, see, this is a story I would listen to not because of the sex Come on, guys. Probably.

It is.

Well, it’s just the way you describe them. Like, this is real world like, yeah, I pulled out, you know. I mean, that’s 2021. You know what I mean? And that’s what I think a lot of people struggle with going to church is this boring, bar Barber, but it’s so

far from boring when you actually get into the real stuff. And maybe I think I know, I was telling Jason, I want to hear your answer. I don’t want to answer because I’d rather hear you’re in the church. Why don’t we go there as often as maybe the four of us would like to go? I think it was we’re afraid of the status quo and breaking that and people want to be comfortable.

But yes, they

want to be comfortable. mean, people want to feel good. They want to be spiritually refreshed. They want that good feeling. Now where I’ve gone on my youth group is you guys have real questions. Let’s stop this game of like playing church and let’s, let’s actually ask real questions. And we dug into race. We dug into sacks, we dug into all of these things, with high schoolers going. And I really liked it. It was sixth, seventh and eighth. But parents were like, literally crucify me over that. But with high schoolers, you are dealing with us, let’s stop pretending that you’re not doing this and let’s dig in. And so we dug into stuff like that. And again, yeah, it’s not easy stuff. But again, I think the status quo we’re afraid of breaking it, but but I’m at that point where, hey, these kids are went off to high school and the stats show most of them are going to leave the truth. It’s because we don’t have real conversations.

Well, I, and that’s kind of what I think is I think it’s, I don’t want to call it lack of courage because he’s telling Jason I kind of get it. Like, in my business when I talk, that’s why my wife is worried about me talking because you’re gonna piss people off if you think differently than they do or say something that might be a little racy. Right, or not really kosher. If you do that in church, you know, you know, at least in a Dutch church, that there’s gonna be people lined up ready to take your job. Oh, yeah. Because you did something that was offensive, right? But it’s in their damn Bible that they read and believe in and, and but yeah, you offended them. And, you know,

I think some of them read it, because others wouldn’t get there get to them be like, Oh, no, that’s really there. And it’s really

messy. Right. But you know, people would be angry and you know, it might cost you your job.

And other. Go ahead. I think the other thing that is the elephant in the room when it comes to the American church is like everything else in America, it comes down to the almighty dollar. Yeah, pastors don’t feel comfortable talking about real issues because their livelihood is on the line. I mean, I fought that is one of the reasons I left full time minutes.

I told Jason, I got that I’m gonna leave out some of the names but just say I was walking with a pastor, and your podcast on Donald Trump. Awesome. I mean, it was just awesome when you guys did that. But I was Yeah,

I was there.

I know.

Don’t say you.

You guys, that was awesome. I’m a host. But what I realized is in my job, I have to walk a fine line. I hate Donald Trump. And if my clients hear this, Yeah, dude, I hate him. I’m so glad he’s not in office. When I’m actually in my office, I have to act like, act like I’m okay with it.

No, you don’t have to act. Okay. Would they be like

yeah, Uh huh. Okay, so let’s talk about these numbers. But my point being that So the whole point of this is, I understand there is an economic issue here that I have to walk a fine line because there’s an economic issue here. So I feel bad for pastors, because they have the same problem. Oh, yeah. Like if they if I say if I say something against Donald Trump, half my congregation might stop giving or walk out the door. Yeah. And it’s not their fault. It’s I used to think, well, that’s cowardly. Well, I’m a coward too, then. Because I do the same damn thing in my job. I feel bad. I feel. I think you’re all in a tough spot.

Yeah, but I think at the way moving forward, I mean, COVID has changed a lot. Because I mean, there’s a bunch of people not coming back to church because they got out of the habit of it. And it was just a habit.

I have to interrupt. Yeah. And I know you know, your church finances. You don’t have to give me the numbers. Have you seen your numbers just

for money? No.

See, we have which is weird. Because I do online giving it’s automatic every month. Big plummet.

Yeah. For our church, a lot of people are giving the same way automatic. Yeah, it’s automatic boom, has stayed really consistent. But again, there’s people who, who were just coming to church because it was a thing they did every Sunday, and then you get out of the habit, like you get to livestream. And it’s weird, but it’s also really comfortable. Yes, you get to sit there, you can just wake up and literally, I can put my hand on my pants.

Why? Well, not that far. You know, you tuck it in. You just talk it not like doubt you

guys you cannot masturbate in church.

Okay, there goes. Anyways, back to your saying a lot of people aren’t coming back to church.

So so but it’s allowing pastor to say like, Are we really going to play this church thing anymore? Are we going to really talk about the real stuff? And so I think there’s a moment I know, for me to come to the point where I said, I don’t care if I lose my job, because these students are facing real things, and they’re leaving the church. And I don’t want that on my counter. So

you’re willing to gamble? Yeah. I am very impressed with that.

Because Because the worst thing that happens is I get fired and I find something else you’ll

find another one.

Or even inside of the church. I’d rather be honest, and deal with real shit. Yeah, students instead of playing around and talking about Jesus’s love. Well, yeah, but like, what does that actually look like in real life? I love that rather than but again, I can see where you’re saying, dude, there’s not a lot of churches that are doing there are some pastors I remember. Remember the ROB Bell, like he actually got into the actual, like, like, like, like, like Old Testament was like,

probably hearing a lot of Rob Bell coming through me right

now. There you go.

And but you notice who’s no longer a pastor?

Yep. Well, he

went where the money was.

We’ll talk offline.

Oprah, Oprah paid better than the church.

Nice. So we’ve talked about the progress. We’ve talked about women. We’ve talked about the racy parts of the Bible. It just kind of leads my brain down the track of Okay, we’ve got to talk about something else. That’s also A little bit controversial and a little bit is an understatement. But within the realm of Christianity, LGBTQ is like a screaming hot button topic right now, there are people leaving the church because of the Bible, or what they perceive the Bible to say or not say. And in my mind, as we talk about the inerrancy of the Bible, this has to be addressed because this is such a, an issue right now in our culture. And I think it is definitely a I don’t know if it’s a breaking point. But it’s something that has to be reconciled. Like, I think the church as a whole needs to get, get around this this subject somehow and in some way, because there are all there’s a lot at stake if we get this wrong.

Yes. A lot. I think a lot of churches aren’t even talking about it. Yeah, just to the elephant in the room, just exactly, by

so as we were talking, I was reminded of a film project in the movie is called 1946. And the whole premise of this movie is what if the word homosexual was never meant to be in the Bible. And it’s basically a conversation around the 1946 gathering where they put together the I believe it was the New Revised, or the Revised Standard Version, which essentially became the modern day basis that other translations were were based on. And we can get into the the nitty gritty details, the Greek, Hebrew, whatever. But essentially, there was some conflicting research. And the prevailing argument was that homosexual was the hormone like the word, the word for homosexual was actually the word for homosexuals, what they ultimately landed on. But there was a lot of debate, and there was a pretty well known theologian who said, Guys, this is totally off like that word wasn’t intended to be homosexual. That was not the intent at all. And those verses that were under conflict, are the go to verses that Christians use today to say that homosexuality is wrong. Now, I did probably a horrible job at summing that up, but a long job. Yeah, right. Maybe because I’m nervous. I don’t know. But the word homosexual,

I’m sorry, I hate that word. I’ve never like it’s not in our vernacular anymore. It’s gay. So when you say homosexual, it sounds so like you’re being mean, right? But it’s not. It just sounds weird to me in my head.

So I’ll just read this paragraph to sum up what I was trying to say. The first time the word homosexual appeared in any Bible was in the Revised Standard Version published in February 11 1946. In the rsps, translation of First Corinthians six, verse nine, the home of the word homosexual was used in lieu of the Greek words, mellow Chi and our Seneca Chi Thai. researchers agree today these words translate loosely to a feminine C and pervert or sexual pervert. The decision to use the word homosexual instead of the accurate translations was voted on by the RSP committee. 1946 the movie explores how this mistranslation ignited the anti gay movement within the American Christian Church. Wait

a minute, so

you’re telling me the word that word wasn’t in there before? 1946? Well,

it wasn’t even a word. So we can play with words a lot. I think people do. And I’m going to show my hand right here like, wow, show me the backup. I think the church has handled this topic really shitty, like this has been a horrible, they are people they’re not issues to be debated. But there also is sin and we need to figure out what is incentive just wait opposite of God’s way that leads to death. Like that’s how I see sin in Scripture. Yeah, could that word have been translated something else, but we also get one in man life one man, like with a woman like, there is the idea. Now, just because they termed it as a word doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be there. Now. That’s maybe a bad word choice. But the idea is there in Scripture. I mean, I don’t think we can get away from I mean, we can debate words all day long, which would be really boring, but

I was before I left the church. I went to a church where we went through about a year long process where we had a lesbian couple join our church. They had two little boys. And the question was whether or not we’re going to baptize these boys. And I was on, believe it or not, I was on consistory. They had no business if they had actually questioned what my beliefs, you know, they would have been like, he’s off, but they never did. I never did that. But what was really cool the pastor I think, did it right. he outlined four different accepted views of homosexuality within the church, one being it’s a sin, one being love the sinner Hate the sin. Well, I can’t remember the third one. But the fourth one, one that I actually opted to read on was open and affirming which there’s lots of churches that are open and affirming, that are basically saying this as part of diversity. And what he asked the consistory members to do, was to pick a book that was opposite of your view. And I was probably more in the love the sinner Hate the sin camp. So I read this open and affirming book is called a letter to my congregation. It’s actually the name of the book, if anyone’s interested in reading it. And I don’t know if it’s right. But what so so I don’t want to sit here and say, This is what I think is going on. Because this is a tough topic. Yeah. But what it talked to is that one of the common things that the Romans did, if like, I have a younger person in my office, who’s actually helping some of my clients, so he’d be kind of like an apprentice. Now imagine this apprentice is even younger, a young non hasn’t hit puberty boy, one of the ways that I would show my dominance because in Roman culture I’ve been upon pay I don’t have any anyone’s been there. But if you go to Palm pay or, or an old Roman city, there is phallic symbols, I mean, that the penis is I’m not saying this in a gross way. It is a picture of strength, fertility. And it’s actually put on the walls. Like, like you’d be walking by. And the guide would say, hey, touch this and everyone touch Oh, by the way, that was a fan like that was Thanks. Great. Love it, you know, but and a lot of the statues if you’re in Rome, you know, but yeah, and then the Vatican, it’s funny because I chopped them off. You walk into the Vatican, and there’s a bunch of castrated men with those Catholics. So we’re gonna keep them all let’s not go there. But the point being, the point of this is one of the things that men would do to their young men apprentices would be to have sex with them to show their dominance. Well,

they still do that in some other countries, currently. So

the question is, and I’m not saying this is the case, but the question is, in Paul’s time, and that culture, is that what Paul was talking about? And there’s no in the world he could have ever imagined. Imagine a monogamous relationship with a loving lesbian couple with two young boys. Well, it’s possible that Paul’s talking about this accurate, I think any of us would say, is sin, versus this Act, which is very different things

are once pedophilia. So that’s

I and once again, that was the point of the book I read, I tend to lean towards that. But that does not mean that I’m right.

Yeah. And that. Was he talking about that? Yes. That was one of the things he was talking about, because he’s gonna say that sin because that doesn’t line up with Scripture, his view of sex. But he was also drawing from the Old Testament. The Old Testament wasn’t talking about Roman culture was that again, it was talking about that. And even in Roman culture, there was, you know, two men of status where it wasn’t the power play there was that that existed? But again, I yeah, I mean, we can wrestle on this all day long.

AKA Mike wants to move on. I don’t.

I don’t know where this is going.

Well, Ben, Ben started. Yeah,

I know. I

get a little. Yeah, I

mean, we can move on. But like Ben and I have talked about it. I’m way more comfortable with it.

What the the best thing that I would say is anybody that’s struggling with that issue, I really appreciate our patches. We’re saying, we’re gonna have this conversation. And before we have this conversation, you’re gonna read a book from the opposite point. Well, how did it end up? We baptize the children. Oh,

see it here. And I guess where I am like, I’ve tried to biblically prove that it’s okay. Because we have neighbors, we have friends. We have people who are like ants to cam who are lesbian couple. And I don’t want to have this conversation with them about you know, if someday they asked, no, no, no, they’re not Christian. So like, people are non Christians can do whatever the hell they want. Because they’re not Christians. They don’t claim to follow the Bible. But I don’t want to have that conversation. My hope is that they come to know Jesus. But I can’t get away from scripturally. Like, I don’t see where we can get away from that.

Sure, yeah. And there’s nothing wrong with that,

like where you’re coming from? Because or you can just become like me and go, I don’t care. Well,

well, I don’t need I don’t agree with it.

No, one more spot. Paul, in one of his letters, and First Corinthians says that this man who’s having sex with his mother in law should be excommunicated from the church. And in Second Corinthians, he changes his mind.

So you’re pulling Is that you? You can it’s a flip flop thing. Maybe Paul was wrong.

Yeah. Well, from my perspective, this became a real thing for me. Within the last month even I where I had to be like, Oh, so where do I stand on this issue? So, as you all know, Dave, I think you may be caught it on a podcast, I mentioned it tonight. I have a wedding officiant business on the side. And my clients so far have all been heterosexual couples, lots of different life situations, some young some old some first time marriages a couple third time marriages. Well, I got an inquiry a couple of weeks ago from a gay couple, and they said that they love Jesus. But we’re gay. And are you okay with that? And I had to really think about that. I’m like, shit. Um,

it’s one thing to say it on a podcast that you’re okay with it. But when it comes down to

exactly. Here’s where I stand, I’ll just come out and say it. Ha, come out. That was a bad joke.

You’re waiting for the sad trombone. Like

I couldn’t get to a place in my heart of hearts where I was okay with doing that.

And I think that’s totally okay. I think that’s an acceptable, that’s where you’re at. Yeah,

that’s where I’m at. And I’m not saying if I had to do everything, I’d be there either. Well, the problem is he feels uncomfortable saying that because the the environment that’s around right now, like if you’re anti not that I’m not saying that you are right, but making that decision and standing on it. You know, people are gonna hate you. You either way. It’s like chick fil a.

Yeah, we’re gonna stop eating chick fil a, because the owner doesn’t believe in almost like, we’re Hobby Lobby. Why is he not allowed to have his own beliefs? Exactly. You can have your own beliefs as long as you’re on the liberal side, right? Yeah. As soon as you have more of a conservative side. Now you’re a bigot, or you’re Yeah, I don’t want to say it’s his choice. Yeah. And nobody knows the answer is the point.

Yeah. So I fell back into a corner. And, and this is probably wasn’t the best way to handle it. It wasn’t I ignored it. I didn’t say anything. I left it I and they moved on. They moved on, they hired somebody else I found out because my the platform I use, you can pull up the message. And it will say if they hired somebody and it said hired other professional and it was like,

I honestly think you kind of beat out on it. Like that was your opportunity to either make a stand or not make a stand. And well, I mean, but he was not ready. What do you mean, he wasn’t ready? No, he just he didn’t want to do it. And he didn’t want

to tell or like my daughter don’t die on that hill.

Yeah, that’s kind of where I was. It was like, it’s not your Hill to die. Yeah. And and So from my perspective, am I comfortable? blessing a marriage between a man and a man or a woman? And what No, I’m

not a response. It’s kind of a D bag move just to like

ghost. I mean, and when they

found somebody

they had to, I mean, I would say it’s because there’s so much hurt with people who are in that situation with the church. And like, I know, I mean, for my neighbors, like when when Christians will say things, like, it really hurts them. And so this is why like, I’m less afraid of my church or in this than my neighbors because again, my beliefs are saying it’s I think in Scripture, it’s sinful. Now, do I believe that that most of my neighbors are all my neighbors said yes. And do I sin? Yes. But But I’m more uncomfortable with that, because I love them so much. You don’t want to hurt them. I don’t want to hurt them because it’s because it affects so much of their life and the church has been shitty to them as a whole.

That’s like, even if it is if it is a sin. I know. I’m not there to figure it out. If it isn’t, but if it is, the fact of the matter is we get to bury our shit. I get to hide my sins. Yep,


there. Yeah, that’s a good if it is a sin. There’s right there in front of it. And then people will they keep doing it over and over. Oh, like you don’t do something over and over and over again that you know he’s doing do right. guilty, right. Yeah. You know, and I know and why do I do it? Because I like to

Yeah, yep.

Because I cuz I like to do bad things. Yeah,

yeah. And I guess going back to Ben like, I would agree with you with doing the wedding now. When our neighbors invite us to the wedding. I we’re definitely going now I see that as two different things. Now some Christians would would hate that. But I see it as Jesus going to the tax collectors to who society thought were sinners, and going there and being part of that now being the pastor of it. Yeah, I’m saying okay, it’s a sin and I can’t combine, you know, something that I see as sin but it’s kind of weird though. Mike.

I like celebrating it but yet you don’t believe in it. That’s kind of the definition of hypocrisy. No, I don’t think so. I do.

Okay, if say to me, it’s going. You are people that I love and I’m gonna be there for I know that’s a tough

part right? Yeah, you love them so much side

of the table these things anymore. See to

me, I’m like, man, I can’t let that go because again, like I’m like, there’s truth and I can’t let go of truth. So I’d love to be with you.

It’s very great. Just to me from an outside perspective, I see like, you’re kind of a hypocrite. I’m not saying you are, but it just, that seems like a move like,

I’m going to support you. I’m going to love you. But yeah, you’re going to hell. Well, and I won’t even say that though. Not in not just because they’re gay. Like, if Boy, you can’t say they’re going to hell because we will go to hell that yeah, I mean, so I innocent as I said, Now, the reason why I do think they’re going to Hell is because they’re not Christians. Yeah, yeah. And so that’s where I am. I know it’s segue I know we’re segwaying into that but again and again but but there’s there’s other neighbors who like I think maybe going to hell. I’m really digging a hole here but but what I’m seeing though is Jesus went to the the things and Jesus did a dead end. Jesus told them stop sinning like but he went there as a witness not you’re not going to go to that wedding and witnessed anybody know, but it is Oh, it is going there and loving them. Because my my hope in life is to continue to tell them about Jesus like I true. I’ve told him about Jesus in little ways. And I’ve shown them Jesus, by the way that we love them and care for them. Right. And so I see it as continuing that conversation continuing. There’s this Jesus way. That is love. If your friends were

I’m gonna pull Muslim, would you go to their wedding? Yeah. Oh, shit. I was already pulling back before you said that. Like as you were talking more, I’m like, Okay, I’m pulling back a little bit. But let’s

look at Jesus. We talk about the fact that he was edgy. He was he hung out with people, like tax collectors who were I mean, you don’t associate with tax collectors. They’re nasty. My IRS is nasty.

My but my second favorite story in the Bible. Tomorrow is my first. My second is when they bring the woman to him and they have her stoned. Yeah, that is the most beautiful Jesus story. Right? I would just it gives me the chills thinking about him writing in the dust.

Yeah. And what was he writing? I think it was the all the sins of these other. That’s what

I think he was writing their name.

And he’s like ye without sin cast.

Like, basically, I know what you did. Yeah,

I know what you did. I know. Yeah.

And then with a woman at the well, like you don’t associate with that type of person. So I think Jesus would 100% go to a gay wedding. Yeah. 100%.

I’m backtracking a little bit good.

Because Jesus goes. Jesus goes to the broken places.

Yeah, you’re right. You’re 100%.

But but we’re like when she goes to the woman to while he doesn’t just condone everything, right. She’s done. He goes, I’ve seen it. And I love you. And I’m here and I’m breaking all social norms. Like, he was breaking like, I know everything. So many social norms there, let’s just say 10 social norms to be there. Right? And he was making themselves dirty by being there. But he goes, you’re that important. But he doesn’t just say, you know, it’s fine. Keep doing that. He goes, No, there’s a path to life. And I think he loved her too much. Yeah, her there. He looked. And this is where I think a lot of Jesus is. I don’t know if Jesus was always moving society forward. And you said that Dave, and some of them he goes, sometimes Jesus was moving it backwards, like so when it when he talks about murder. He doesn’t just say it’s the act of murder, he actually makes it more difficult. He says, anger or hate towards your brother sister’s murder. So sometimes I think Jesus is pulling it back and saying like, no, like, this is the way it really is. So I keep seeing Jesus saying, this is the way to live. This is the one way to live. And sometimes it’s forward. Sometimes it’s backwards. It’s nothing. I know it’s so anti-cultural in so many ways.

So let’s transition because we’re we’re getting up on time. Not that I always hate when podcasts are say that we’re coming up on time. No, you’re not. You could record for 14 hours if you want to. But we don’t want people have to listen to a three hour podcast. So we’re, we’re probably an hour to get to hell, though.

We have to

wait. Oh, professional.

We had to wait a segue. Oh, and that’s

what I was doing. I told Jason how to drive today. Oh my goodness.

Well, I don’t ever tell Jason.

All I said was I think you have to be in the left lane. I’m a professional driver.

I drive for a living for all my job


Alright, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna sit in my driver’s seat anyways. So

before we wrap up, we want to kind of we talked about, you know, hell in the afterlife. And Ben had such a you know, just the one question that I think we all we just need to say it and that’s a good jumping off point is Can God save your soul after you die? Well, that’s not a good jumping off point. That’s actually a deep one. Yeah.

I think You believe

in an afterlife? Oh, so both start where but where do you save

your soul before you die? Like why are you Dave question? That’s

my question. It’s, it comes from CS Lewis. It’s come from the great divorce, which is a great CS Lewis book which it makes me laugh like you brought up Rob bell. And one of my comments is if you want to go on to rob Bell book burning, you better take the Chronicles of Narnia with you. Okay, it says the same thing. Yeah, it says the same dang thing was just in a children’s story and it doesn’t get there till the last battle no one reads that one because he like got lost somewhere through but but CS Lewis really has a lot of the same similar views as wins. So but my point is, is where I would disagree with love wins, is that I think that there’s plenty of people that would choose a life without God, that that they don’t they have so much pride in them, someone like Hitler.

So they don’t care about the afterlife. They’re like whatever I don’t care even

in even in the afterlife, so wrapped up in who they are. So a narcissist, they don’t need God. And so they’re going to be stuck there. Where Rob bell would say, well, God’s gonna come and save his soul to, but I think that we as human beings are plenty capable of living trying to do it on our own and saying, I can do this on my own. I don’t need you. But my my, I guess my general point is, why in the world, have we decided that you have to say the magic words or accept Jesus in your heart before you die? When God is a God of second chances over and over and over again in the Bible? Why would it Alton Well, this time now I’ve given you so many chances while you’re alive, but not. Now. You are a 14 year old kid and you died in a car accident because the world sucks. And you never said I love Jesus. So now you’re going to hell, how in the world does that fit? It doesn’t? Yeah, it doesn’t fit in with the Jesus character. And it certainly doesn’t fit in with a loving God. That’s what I’m gonna say. I say either there’s no God. Or there’s a loving God’s got that figured out? Or he’s a total bastard. And if he is, I don’t want to be there. I’d rather rather be with my friends than be with that guy. Or that dude, you mean be with your friends? Like cuz none of us are going to get in? I mean, if that’s the way it’s gonna be, no, I’m just gonna get in. So I’d rather just party outside rather than live in there. It is super weird that like, you have to say I accept Jesus into my heart. And then I’m golden. I just don’t know where that came from. I

think it’s, I don’t think that’s true.

The thief on the cross? Never did. He said it. He just said stop making fun of them. He didn’t do anything wrong. That’s all the thief said. And Jesus said, was he in paradise?

Yeah. Well, I think we put so much emphasis in, in this idea of us doing something or saying something. But I think it’s more of it’s deeper than that. Like, you will know, a tree by its fruit. Like, what is your life producing? And are you

I totally disagree.

Well, what is finished?

Why you? Could you stop in your own? I just shook my head. No, it didn’t. I didn’t say stop. Was this your first podcast?

Yeah, actually, no. So where I’m going with this is, it’s not just about a one time decision. I don’t think that is biblical. I don’t see people in the Bible, where they say,

as rested on that. Don’t interrupt him.

yell at him. Sorry.

I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where somebody says that I prayed a prayer and now and saved. What I see is a God who takes us and changes us and does work inside of us. Does it require a belief? 100%? Yes, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Got it. But that doesn’t mean pray this prayer. And magically you’re going to heaven later. It needs to be a lifestyle. It needs to be a you are intentionally living so different.

So that it’s more like a ceremony at church then when you do that,

where I have this

ceremony, but no ceremony

ceremony that say, Why do you have to stand up in front of church and say that? Who said that, like the freaking church, like you have to go through professional faith classes, all

this other crap? Not in the Wesleyan Church. But well, we’re

not even go there. But I’m aware I’m going this is where you go ahead. This is where my question goes, I agree with you. 100% Why does it end upon our a God who knows? A day is like 1000 years, a God who is not bound by time? Why do we say you got to do it in this life? But you got to do it before you die. Well, we

never know what’s your life. So how can we do it in the life that we don’t know that even exists either?

Either there’s no God, or he’s loving, or he’s a dick, is where I come from. So if he’s loving, I just don’t think he’s going to end.

You’re basically saying, if he’s loving, then we don’t have to do that we’re all going to be good at the end. And if he’s a dick, then we’re all screwed. And if there’s no God, then we just get buried. What I’m saying

is that there’s plenty of people in the world that are evil. There’s plenty of people in the world that are so wrapped up in themselves. This is in the great that they they cannot stop. So the character so there’s a great story in the Bible where you have Lazarus the poor man, you got the rich man. But what’s missing where people miss this is go well to see the rich man’s in hell and Lazarus isn’t having the rich man is still asking Peter to send Lazarus down to serve him water. The rich man still thinks Lazarus is his bitch. Yeah. And that’s why he’s still in hell. Not because he’s there to suffer. It’s because he can’t get out of his way that this guy is still my servant. This guy is still that dog outside my door. He should bring me a cup of water. He’s still living in his own hell, and he can’t get out of it.

Mike? Yeah. So I have a couple questions. So you believe in so we’re talking about the 14 year old so let’s just use a 14 year old gets gets hit by a car drunk driver, let’s make it like really epic. Do you believe if he hasn’t had belief that that he can go to heaven afterwards?

I believe guy can still reach that person. Okay, I just don’t believe that God’s gonna say at this time. That person screwed. Okay,

so now with that 14 year old do you think that 14 year old is is evil? Know what that 14 year old is that you know, like this God thing I totally reject. I’m going to live opposite the way of God

if that 14 was going to live the rest of their life in eternity they’re going to have to either decide this isn’t this My Lord my Savior? I it’s either have it your way. Or you’re my god, you at some point in time the great confession has to be made.

Well then you tell the caveat in this like, God knows when everyone’s gonna die. So what you know, he died in that car crash he didn’t have the opportunity to I just think it’s too simple.

I just think that this too simplistic or anything, I just think of it as as at some point time the great compassion has to be made and I don’t don’t agree with Rob bell in terms of everybody’s gonna make the great confession. What I’m just saying is, I just don’t know why we put a clock on God.

Yeah. And here’s the thing that i i definitely hope you are right. Like and actually hope that hope that hell doesn’t exist, like a loving God does exist.

I know. It exists here. Yeah. I mean, what do we call the Holocaust? That was how Yeah,

but I think it does exist. But I also think it’s a picture of something far worse, I think how is far worse than the Holocaust. I think that was a picture of how or a hell in a small hell, but you keep going. God is love. And I guess I’ve really wrestled with this God is love means that God created us with a choice to love him. Because otherwise that’s not love. Like if God created beings to love him, and we were forced to love him. That wouldn’t be loved. That’d be controlling, like, like, I cannot make my wife love me. I can. I can, you know, pour my love out to her. But I can’t make her love me. Otherwise, that’s not love. She’s a robot and which, that’s weird. We won’t go down that path. I look at Jason because Jason has some comment with a robot. Anyways, so God has loved so so but as soon as we choose not to love God back, we are committing evil because we’re choosing to live opposite of God. We’re not choosing not to have that love back. So we are choosing to live separate from God. That’s what happened back back in the garden. Humans said, Hey, we were able to do it different than God’s way God said don’t do this, we’re gonna do it. So even that even that 14 year old has chosen if they haven’t chosen to be in a real relationship with God, they’ve chosen to live separate from God, that’s been their choice so far. Now I hope that at that moment of afterlife, I hope there is that moment to say, Jesus your Lord, you’re my king. But I don’t I haven’t read through Jesus talking about it seems like at the end of life is when that judgment happens. And I can’t get away from those verses I get I want to I want to get away from it because again, I don’t want to believe there’s a hell cuz I believe there’s a lot of our friends who aren’t Christian who I think are amazing people. Yeah,

this and this. This comes straight out of love wins just putting the the Asterix By notating When Jesus uses the word l he uses word Ghana. Yep, Ghana is the town dump. Yep. Where they are burning their trash and they’re burning dead bodies. And there’s animals there that are gnashing their teeth as they fight over the scraps. That’s the that’s the image Jesus you so when Jesus says it’s better for you to cut off your hand, and live the life I’m telling you, rather than have both hands and live over there in the town dump. It’s a very different statement than do what I say or you’re gonna burn for eternity. Um,

no, I think Jesus and this is where I’m gonna disagree with you and Rob Bell because like I’ve read that book study. I’m like, Cuz because I actually do want to believe that. I think he’s saying that’s a picture because when Jesus says that he’s the door, the gate, the shepherd, he’s not physically a door. But he’s using this apple. He’s being a good teacher. He goes, Oh, hell, Hell is like, oh, that nasty place like imagine living there because we get into Matthew 25. You know, he says, there is the what am i frickin

wreck to you? Why

is it that the alarm oversees the Do Not Disturb?

I’ve no idea where I was talking about how

they view? Yeah, so

maybe 25? Yeah, so Matthew 25, we have Jesus saying that it is an eternal fire. And again, I can’t get away from Jesus saying, again, Jesus is using that physical example, because Jesus is a great teacher. He’s the master teacher. And master teacher says, it’s like this, even with students, I will use that example of our faith being a wall is one I’m gonna do and I’m going to smash the wall. Now I’m really saying that our faith is a wall, no one, that’d be stupid. And they should like, think I’m stupid. So I get where Rob is, I get where he wanted it to be. But Jesus is seeming to talk about any eternal buggin. I think it’s, it’s not God sending you there, it’s you choosing that because you’ve chosen to live separate of God, because Heaven is connection with God, it’s going back to the garden. And some people don’t want that. And so a 14 year old can say, Hey, I don’t want to follow this Jesus.

Now, but let’s say that 14 year old, never truly encountered the living true Christ. And any perception that he had of God was inaccurate. This is where I go back to. If God just sends that person to hell than concert deck, like, what is the person that didn’t even had the chance to hear of this amazing God? Or have their life transfer? He

knows when they’re gonna die?

Or Or what about all the people that existed prior to Jesus?

Yeah. Was it a different set of rules? Oh, no, but but it was a trust in God. The mean, Jesus is just God in the flesh sounds like a better deal to me.

I would rather have been born before Jesus. Oh, it

seems to me that sounds way harder, because you have way less of like actual God and the president, you have to be born in a nation. You have no knowledge and God’s people. So I mean, most of them are those other nations. They’re all writing seems to be scripturally. And again,

I guess that’s where I’m,

yeah, that’s why I don’t go to church. No,

no, this is good.

This is good conversation back because I can’t go back to be there. But it seems to be, again, again, everyone who chose that chose to be separate from God. At some point, we all choose to sin, which is, I’m going to live my own way instead of God’s way. And I’d go back to yours is that you know, Romans one says, There’s nature now do they need to believe in the exact thing things about Jesus? Or can that person who lives in another country say, you know, I see this nature and there has to be a God, and he has to be there and, and I want to be with him? I think that’s

so then all other religions, if you believe a different religion, that I mean,

no, because that means like, like, I mean, I’ve watched how many Christian Christians are there in the world, like, half the world’s getting smoked.

And there’s plenty of Christians. I think the other sects of Christianity aren’t going to get it right. Which,

yeah, I mean, there’s lots of that. What do you mean? Oh, there’s

plenty of like, you’ll have like the

reformed in Armenian. I mean, okay. Break it down for Jason. Sorry.

Don’t be rude. Yeah, that’s

there, your camp that says that once you’re saved, you’re always saved and nothing’s going to change that. Yeah. Versus the camp, I find myself in where Historically, the Church says, your faith is to be lived out. And if you stop living out your faith, maybe you really, genuinely don’t have faith.

Well, it’s not my camp. It’s an I,

church, you

got the seven Day Adventists you’ve got the Catholics who believe you need to be baptized, or you’re going to end up in limbo, and that you have to confess confess your sins to some random person and not to say and to make I love. I’m not making fun of Catholics. I actually love Catholic writers I know but I just want to be very clear. But my point is they’ve got a different sets of traditions and things that they think have to be followed in order for this to go through who’s right so it all comes down to what do we think it’s what I think it’s the church I go to I have the right answers. And these are the the formula that you need in order to get there. I’m going to go throw the formulas out. God’s love, man, God is love. And I think God’s got a plan. And I think that plan is gonna encompass way more people than what we would.

Yeah, it’s again, meant to have a pump our paygrade So wrap us up. Ben, what are we doing here? Like, I feel like we’re all over the place. Do we want to continue on or

how is everybody on time? It’s nine o’clock.

I’m good. Well, we’re

we’re having beers. That’s it. I’m looking forward to it or a drink, but

I don’t know.

I think I need to clarify something too. Yeah, go for it. Yeah, jump back and no, I think like back to yours, Ben. Know that other religions aren’t but I think I mean, even in Romans one it says, you know, we’re all responsible. We all have the ability to know of God through even creation. You know, in the Old Testament, right? They were following what God said, God said, you know, this is the way to be in relationship with me. I think it’s about relationship with God. Now, I think we’re Dave and I disagree the most is God is what what it means that God is love. Does that mean that we can just do it, I think in Scripture shows us what the form of the formula is given our life surrender in our life, saying, God, I want to be back in relationship with you because you came to fix it on the cross. And that you know, and we talked about a little bit in the beginning, I, you know, there is the wrath of God. That seems to be in Scripture, but there also is God saying, the wrath is going to be on me. So sometimes when we separate God, the Father and God, the son, we think of child abuse. But if we go back to Genesis, it’s God’s saying, I’m going to take care of this, you messed this up, you broke this relationship, I’m going to do what it takes to fix it. So think of as a parent, how often do our kids break our you know, friendship that we have this this relationship we have. And often we as the parent will bear the brunt of that? Well, that’s just a picture of God, God’s saying, I will come, I will die, I will fix it. And it’s up to us to accept it. Just like my son, my son can choose to not accept me trying to fix our relationship. So God’s a sovereign helicopter parent. Sorry, nobody’s not. That’s the thing, because that’s why I mean, he’s he’s allowing us to come because otherwise we would be robots, and that wouldn’t be loved. So one thing I want to bring up you you keep bringing up these three things. God is love. God is a bastard or what’s the other is no, God. Okay.

What do you believe?

I believe God is love. Okay, so that brings up a good point. So you’re basically like he said, you can just live the way you want. And God is love. And we’re all good.

At its core, yes. That’s a weird way to like, but But think about when you give rules to your kids, do you give them to him? Because you hate them? Or it’s because you don’t know what’s best for them?

Correct. So when God’s so what God think we know is

when God says, for example, that that sex should be within a marriage. I’m going to tell you I’ve had I’ve had relations with girls outside of my marriage, not while I’ve been married Jana.

Yeah. Good. Good, good catch.

But what I’m gonna tell you is all of those relationships lead to pain. Yeah. Within marriage. So so the God knows what’s best. So it’s not like live however you want. Because it leads to brokenness and unhappiness, and God wants what’s just like, with my kids, I want what’s best for them. But if God is love, you can live like that, bro. But it doesn’t mean that’s what’s best for me. So for you, God is the ultimate parent. These These rules are not meant as a way to get to heaven. They’re not meant as a way to control your life. It’s God created the dang thing. So he knows how it works. So when he writes these things down, we should probably try to follow them. Because it’s best for you. And it’s going to lead to the greatest fulfillment, the greatest happiness. So following the law, or the disciplines, for me, is a way because the person who created this world knows how it works. I’m going to follow him. Yeah. And as soon as I go against him, it hurts me. Yeah. But you’re talking about both sides your mouth, though? No, I’m not. I’m just saying it’s not. It’s not a prerequisite. But if I will, what I am saying is, if I live however, I want to live, that God’s still gonna love me if I if I as a father incapable of saying to my daughters, yes, if you turn into a prostitute, and you do all these adorable things, I love you unconditionally. I made you but when

we talk about the afterlife, of course, God’s still gonna love you if you’re an asshole. Like, that’s just what I’m not

gonna throw my kids into a fiery pit and watch him burn.

So why would God do that?

I don’t know, just just does. It does feel like both sides. Like I’m with Jason. Like I’m saying, like, you’re saying the exact I feel like exactly what I said the whole time. Like, we have scripture, which captures Jesus. And Jesus affirms the Old Testament. You know, he he says, this is actually what it really means. It doesn’t mean what you thought it meant. I actually means this. And it points to me. But yeah, he is saying this is the way to live, because I think it’s a sign of heaven. So if we’re not going to live the sign of heaven if we’re not going to give our life so that doesn’t mean that we need to be perfect. I’m not saying that because I think it is belief, but belief is trust. I’m going to live this way. But but but again, people are choosing to live this way. And if you’re, if your daughter chooses to live separate from you, she’s choosing how on earth, right? And that’s her choice, and she’s gonna see my remain there forever.

But I’m just saying it’s not over for There’s always hope. There’s always second chances. But there’s not when you’re dead. My point is life that I guess that’s my exact point is it doesn’t end at death. What we experienced this is just the life and the life took Mmm hmm, whatever the life to come or once again, but you don’t know, we could all be wrong and it’s a blank space and then none of this matters. Gosh, wouldn’t

it be wouldn’t just be like,

but that’s hopelessness. Well, it’s

so funny like, I do think about that when I die. I’m like, What if it’s just like that’s it, and everyone is just like so in idiot. So what I would

tell you is if I’m going to go to church, or if I’m going to go practice religion, yeah, better make sense today and better have an impact today. Otherwise, it’s not worth doing. I do toe is all about getting somewhere else better. That comes from slavery,

you’d be a better you’re a better person you should live, you should just be nice. regardless

what heaven or hell take religion out of it. Just be in but think about, like you said, Why don’t you just live the way you want to live? When I give to other people? When I do a service project? I feel pretty good. Yeah, I like that feeling.

I mean, to

someone to do some more of it. Right? It’s it really isn’t about trying to earn gods, no, but this is

how it was, I was more challenging you at the end of life. I wasn’t challenging you like, while we’re living, I totally get that. And God loves us. Regardless, I’m

just saying at the end of life, it’ll all work out.

See, and, and, and I want to believe you, I want to be there. But I keep saying there’s a second death, there’s the fire that will last forever. There is the eternal separation, there is a choice of where we, where we won’t choose back to God is really what I’m saying. Like, I don’t think when we choose to live separate, and we die in that. I hope there’s a moment where God says, Okay, this is for real now. But it doesn’t seem to be that he says, you’ve chosen this way of life. This is this is the path you have chosen. Like I get, I’m looking at these verses here. And I’m like, I wish these verses weren’t there. But they’re there. And Jesus said it. And I believe Jesus has the words of life. He knows how it really works. And I don’t get why. And that’s I mean, I hate that. I don’t know why I hate that. I don’t get that. But I also rest in God doesn’t work in in nature. He does work in a job, but God isn’t bound by nature and the rules that we see, yeah, God, God supersedes us because a person shouldn’t rise from the dead. Science says, a person should arise from the dead. But he did it so he knows better. And that’s just where again, I don’t think it’s blind faith. And maybe it is you can tell me if it’s blind faith, but it’s going this man beat death. And this is what he said about how and and being internal. I have to follow Him and because he knows he’s the one that defeated death. Yeah, please. There’s

everybody has blind faith, that whatever the outcome is going to be true. An atheist, I think has to have more faith in the believer, for sure. To believe that this is all an accident. Yeah, that takes a lot. Yeah, I will go on forever. But so so yeah, this blind faith might. Yep. But so is mine. So it was Ben. So it was Jesus, we are blind faith, because none of us know. And I love being in the cloud of the unknowing. The what, where I used to try to prove I’ve gotten to the point where I just don’t know, but man I love talking about Yeah,

well, this has been amazing. It’s a little probably the longest podcast ever. And I can keep going right. And I hope as a listener, you appreciate the conversation, whether you’re religious or not. And I think Dave, and Mike for coming on. And any other closing remarks, Ben?

No, I was just thinking, as I was listening to this. We all have our sticking points that we are going to stick to at the end of the day. Yep. But we have to be able to have conversation around them. And I think we did a really good job of that tonight. So I think this was just a it was fun. But it was also very affirming. I’m leaving feeling good about our conversation and the fact that we respectfully showed up with where we are, yes, had a conversation around things that we may not see eye to eye on. And as far as I know, we’re not leaving the space hating each other. Now,

I think I asked at least one or two good questions. So

I’m yeah, I’m gonna take that as well. And I want to encourage people ask these questions. Have somebody like Dave have a conversation? To me, this is helpful for me even though I’ll give you his number.

Sweet. If you want to Dave’s number like

I thought, well,

I need lots of No,

no, but this is important. I want to like I just want to leave this question everything about Christianity. Because otherwise it’s not your beliefs. Like I think growing up like I grew up in a house that was a very conservative in every single way. And I had to come to a point where bad things happen in church and I had questioned everything. And this is where I landed and I keep questioning like part of my podcast is I keep questioning because I want to make sure do I really believe it? So with Dave’s questions like I’m gonna go home I’m gonna process because I think it’s so important because otherwise it’s not fake. It’s just this weird thing that we just have, like, faith is actually examined, we need to examine like, So Dave, thank you for even bringing up some things that I haven’t thought of because I think this is important for anyone who listens whether they’re non Christian Christian watch If you’re not a Christian question why question why you believe there’s nothing existing outside of this world? Because I think it’s important to be open and keep question because again, that’s that’s where we find truth and truth is really what we’re after.

Yeah, yeah, I’m

looking forward to listening. Alright, but comes out.

Oh man.

I don’t know.

I might delete it all you gotta do you gotta bleep out that that one word I said what one word about you in church

doing bad thing? It’s gonna be Mark explicit.

popped out I can grab a bag

popped out. All right. All right, guys. Have a good night. Good night.

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